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Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:44 pm

I'm totally fine about having him as an AM/SS/ST positions next to Lewy, but not as his replacement, definitely.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby aterford » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:48 pm

The idea of him playing alongside Lewandowski isn't bad in a vacuum, but big-picture I don't know how much sense it makes...

I may have said it elsewhere, but the buzz around the Liverpool camp is that they feel it would be best to sell one of their front three too soon rather than too late. Firmino/Mane/Salah are 28, 27, and 27, respectively, and naturally it's easier to replace one at a time than wait a few years and find yourself needing to replace all three. And Firmino is ostensibly the easiest to replace of the bunch (For me, that's a small 'red flag' in and of itself - that the player is the one Liverpool apparently views as the most 'disposable' for them is a big star for us). On top of that, they likely think they could sell him for more than it would cost to replace him (signs pointing to 60m-Werner).

So for Liverpool I can see it making some sense to sell. But for those very same reasons it'd be a bit of an odd buy for us. If we're in a "rebuild" as claimed, we don't need to be getting any older, either. Firmino is rated at 90m and has a contract until 2023. At age 28, do we need to be spending what would likely be in excess of 70, 80m on a player to play alongside Lewy when at just two years older Muller is playing fantastic alongside him? I have a hard time seeing an angle where it would make sense to spend that kind of money to effectively get two years younger and - at the moment - much worse production.

Further it's a bit disconcerting to me that we're again being linked to the "second choice" player. Werner has been clamoring for a move to Bayern for ages; he's just 23 and would apparently cost just 50-60m. Apparently, Liverpool feel that Werner can fill the "Firmino Role" for them and that he has the quality to contribute to their UCL-winning and soon-to-be EPL-winning side. If we feel Firmino is a good fit for our team and Liverpool feel Werner is a good fit for Firmino's role in their side, wouldn't it stand to reason that we ought to view Werner as a good fit for our team, too? It always feels a bit wrong when a team has determined Player A is disposable and they want to replace with player B and then we get linked with Player B rather than "A" - the one who they have rated as the better option in the future. If we want to be seen as a top club, we should be going after the players teams like Liverpool want as starting-XI options, not the players they are willing to sell to make space for others.

And finally: it feels like another case of going after a big name or big talent rather than filling an assessed need. How many people before the start of the season felt we needed to add a Firmino-type player to our squad? How many thought as much just a couple weeks ago before this rumor popped up? I'd wager it's a very slim number. Heck, I've already seen in recent weeks how we don't need to buy Havertz as an AM/SS as Muller is already playing great there. By that same reasoning, I'd argue we don't need Firmino, either. So it feels largely like the Coutinho deal: doesn't really fit an assessed need or provide an immediate upgrade on a current player/position, but does provide a lot of name recognition, "star power", marketing, etc.

Anyways, I'm not super opposed to the idea in isolation, but the price has to be right. If the price is all the same, Werner seems to be the smarter buy, but either way, we have a LOT of priorities that should be higher than this one right now (Winger, another winger, DM, RB, CB, etc)
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby #12 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:01 pm

aterford wrote:The idea of him playing alongside Lewandowski isn't bad in a vacuum, but big-picture I don't know how much sense it makes...

I may have said it elsewhere, but the buzz around the Liverpool camp is that they feel it would be best to sell one of their front three too soon rather than too late. Firmino/Mane/Salah are 28, 27, and 27, respectively, and naturally it's easier to replace one at a time than wait a few years and find yourself needing to replace all three. And Firmino is ostensibly the easiest to replace of the bunch (For me, that's a small 'red flag' in and of itself - that the player is the one Liverpool apparently views as the most 'disposable' for them is a big star for us). On top of that, they likely think they could sell him for more than it would cost to replace him (signs pointing to 60m-Werner).

So for Liverpool I can see it making some sense to sell. But for those very same reasons it'd be a bit of an odd buy for us. If we're in a "rebuild" as claimed, we don't need to be getting any older, either. Firmino is rated at 90m and has a contract until 2023. At age 28, do we need to be spending what would likely be in excess of 70, 80m on a player to play alongside Lewy when at just two years older Muller is playing fantastic alongside him? I have a hard time seeing an angle where it would make sense to spend that kind of money to effectively get two years younger and - at the moment - much worse production.

Further it's a bit disconcerting to me that we're again being linked to the "second choice" player. Werner has been clamoring for a move to Bayern for ages; he's just 23 and would apparently cost just 50-60m. Apparently, Liverpool feel that Werner can fill the "Firmino Role" for them and that he has the quality to contribute to their UCL-winning and soon-to-be EPL-winning side. If we feel Firmino is a good fit for our team and Liverpool feel Werner is a good fit for Firmino's role in their side, wouldn't it stand to reason that we ought to view Werner as a good fit for our team, too? It always feels a bit wrong when a team has determined Player A is disposable and they want to replace with player B and then we get linked with Player B rather than "A" - the one who they have rated as the better option in the future. If we want to be seen as a top club, we should be going after the players teams like Liverpool want as starting-XI options, not the players they are willing to sell to make space for others.

And finally: it feels like another case of going after a big name or big talent rather than filling an assessed need. How many people before the start of the season felt we needed to add a Firmino-type player to our squad? How many thought as much just a couple weeks ago before this rumor popped up? I'd wager it's a very slim number. Heck, I've already seen in recent weeks how we don't need to buy Havertz as an AM/SS as Muller is already playing great there. By that same reasoning, I'd argue we don't need Firmino, either. So it feels largely like the Coutinho deal: doesn't really fit an assessed need or provide an immediate upgrade on a current player/position, but does provide a lot of name recognition, "star power", marketing, etc.

Anyways, I'm not super opposed to the idea in isolation, but the price has to be right. If the price is all the same, Werner seems to be the smarter buy, but either way, we have a LOT of priorities that should be higher than this one right now (Winger, another winger, DM, RB, CB, etc)


Actually, I'd like a versatile striker (like Werner or Havertz) much better than another winger - provided we're in for Sané and he fully recovers...
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:06 pm

Wow.... him and Son would be super....
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:28 pm

Overrated. Typical Klopp overperformer. Hope we don't fall for it. People need to realize the strength of Klopp teams is rarely un the individual quality fo the players, but rather in the extraordinary implementation of his tactical ideas.

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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby envagyokazapad » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:32 pm

I'd MUCH rather get Werner.
I doubt there is any truth to this rumour anyway.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby aterford » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:21 am

#12 wrote:Actually, I'd like a versatile striker (like Werner or Havertz) much better than another winger - provided we're in for Sané and he fully recovers...


I don't hate the idea either. But while I do think there is some overlap between Firmino and Werner/Havertz....I do believe that the latter two are a bit more 'versatile' in the way you suggest than the former. I've a hunch that Havertz would probably cost in the same ballpark as Firmino and I think we can pretty confidently say Werner would be cheaper than the two.

I do like Firmino as a player, truth be told, but it's hard for me to come up with a good argument for why he'd be a better buy than either of those two (more specifically Werner), be it in regard to price, age, tactical fit, versatility, need, etc.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby #12 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:32 am

aterford wrote:
#12 wrote:Actually, I'd like a versatile striker (like Werner or Havertz) much better than another winger - provided we're in for Sané and he fully recovers...


I don't hate the idea either. But while I do think there is some overlap between Firmino and Werner/Havertz....I do believe that the latter two are a bit more 'versatile' in the way you suggest than the former. I've a hunch that Havertz would probably cost in the same ballpark as Firmino and I think we can pretty confidently say Werner would be cheaper than the two.

I do like Firmino as a player, truth be told, but it's hard for me to come up with a good argument for why he'd be a better buy than either of those two (more specifically Werner), be it in regard to price, age, tactical fit, versatility, need, etc.


Oh for sure, I wasn’t suggesting Firmino in the slightest... Actually, I think Werner’s mich better... As stated before: classic Klopp player...
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby Achilles » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:47 am

I don't like him one bit he is not the typical machine goalscorer that Bayern wants rather the facilitator of the offensive line.
If we need a CF then we need the finisher type plus I truthfully believe that he is the Klopp-player meaning that he delivers so good only under the Klopp system and here he will struggle. Anyway he doesn't worth 80-100M or any amount for Bayern but first and foremost I don't think LFC wants to sell neither he wants to leave, why would he? Liverpool is cementing their place in EPL and they are on their best even if Werner joins them there is still room for everybody and clearly Firmino will be first in the pecking order.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby MUTU » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:33 pm

His numbers aren't great even while Liverpool are dominating and he's playing under Klopp. He is nowhere near Lewandowski level under normal circumstances.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby IsiahRashad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:57 pm

MUTU wrote:His numbers aren't great even while Liverpool are dominating and he's playing under Klopp. He is nowhere near Lewandowski level under normal circumstances.


His role is way different from Lewy's one.

UNIQUE Introducing the ‘Firmino Role’ to finally recognise Bobby’s brilliance [source]


This is why he's so special, but the "stats" guy doesn't see that./Not talking about you, but overall/
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby MUTU » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:30 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:
MUTU wrote:His numbers aren't great even while Liverpool are dominating and he's playing under Klopp. He is nowhere near Lewandowski level under normal circumstances.


His role is way different from Lewy's one.

UNIQUE Introducing the ‘Firmino Role’ to finally recognise Bobby’s brilliance [source]


This is why he's so special, but the "stats" guy doesn't see that./Not talking about you, but overall/

I really saw nothing special about him whenever I watched him play. I think he would disappoint if he leaves Liverpool for any other club.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby bastos80 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:44 pm

MUTU wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:
MUTU wrote:His numbers aren't great even while Liverpool are dominating and he's playing under Klopp. He is nowhere near Lewandowski level under normal circumstances.


His role is way different from Lewy's one.

UNIQUE Introducing the ‘Firmino Role’ to finally recognise Bobby’s brilliance [source]


This is why he's so special, but the "stats" guy doesn't see that./Not talking about you, but overall/

I really saw nothing special about him whenever I watched him play. I think he would disappoint if he leaves Liverpool for any other club.


i think so too. but i don't think it's because of his stats. He also had one amazing season (17/18) with 27 goals and 17 assists in 52 and one for Hoffenheim with 22 goals and 16 assists in 37 games. Rest were solid to good, but he's very important for Liverpool's game.
However, I think that Salah and Mané would also "disappoint" outside of Liverpool.
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Re: Roberto Firmino [Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira]

Postby IsiahRashad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:51 pm

Sounds fare.
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