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Leon Goretzka

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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:35 pm

aterford wrote:Truth be told, I think if anyone goes it is Rudy. I know he has played well thus far - but I'm pretty sure when he was signed, the expectation was to sell him in a year for profit and any good performances would just be regarded as bonuses.


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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby #12 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:54 pm

Again with Goretzka and the whining? This is not even déjà vu anymore, it's **** groundhog day!!!

ramsej84 wrote:
aterford wrote:Truth be told, I think if anyone goes it is Rudy. I know he has played well thus far - but I'm pretty sure when he was signed, the expectation was to sell him in a year for profit and any good performances would just be regarded as bonuses.


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Just remain objective... He's exceeded expectations so far, no doubt about it... But he's still pretty much the weakest link...
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby FCB12Forever » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:55 am

aterford wrote:I think I am pretty confident in knowing which one the club would choose. I have nothing against Rudy but it makes more sense than any of the other options on the table.


Bayern don't sell players for profit. We're not that kind of a club. Bayern sold Gomez for peanuts, never thought about how much he would sell. Hoeness also said 5 million can be negotiated for 5 minutes so it is not worth worrying.

We have to sell someone at CM to make room for Goretzka. For the sake of a young, energetic Bayern I can only see Vidal being sold. 25m wise, 30m wise, doesn't matter. If he makes room for Goretzka that's it. a 31-yo player has a significant chance of declining anytime. Cash in now.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby aterford » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:45 am

FCB12Forever wrote:
aterford wrote:I think I am pretty confident in knowing which one the club would choose. I have nothing against Rudy but it makes more sense than any of the other options on the table.


Bayern don't sell players for profit. We're not that kind of a club. Bayern sold Gomez for peanuts, never thought about how much he would sell. Hoeness also said 5 million can be negotiated for 5 minutes so it is not worth worrying.

We have to sell someone at CM to make room for Goretzka. For the sake of a young, energetic Bayern I can only see Vidal being sold. 25m wise, 30m wise, doesn't matter. If he makes room for Goretzka that's it. a 31-yo player has a significant chance of declining anytime. Cash in now.


Last few seasons:
--Hojbjerg - bought €4m, sold €15m
--Rode - free, sold ~€12m
--Shaqiri - bought €12m, sold €15m
--Mandzukic - bought €13m, sold ~€22.5m
--Can - free, sold €5m
Also perhaps: Costa - bought for €30m, if Juve makes loan permanent they'll reportedly pay like €40m.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby Coman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:52 am

aterford wrote:
Coman wrote:
aterford wrote:Truth be told, I think if anyone goes it is Rudy. I know he has played well thus far - but I'm pretty sure when he was signed, the expectation was to sell him in a year for profit and any good performances would just be regarded as bonuses.


What ? If he is good he will not be sold.

And he is our only regista kind of player. To sell him to make space for a box to box would be more than stupid and useless. Whatever it's Goretzka or not.


Uhh....Thiago??? I think one could easily argue that regista is his best role and he's certainly better at it than Rudy. Not to mention both Goretzka and Tolisso can and have played the role of regista as well.
.


There it's the problem. You see a potential regista in every single player while they can't. It could work against Mainz or Bremen. But not in UCL biggest game.

Thiago in a midfield duo why not of course he is good there, but not as #6 in a 4-3-3 if needed. Only Rudy can do that.

Not Tolisso and even less Goretzka.
4-3-3 : Neuer - Kimmich Boateng Hummels Alaba - Goretzka Thiago James - Robben Lewandowski Gnabry
3-5-2 : Neuer - Boateng Hummels Alaba - Thiago - Kimmich Goretzka James Coman - Müller Lewandowski
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby pyrasur » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:45 pm

I think Thiago works as the deepest midfielder. Not sure about Tolisso, I don't think Goretzka can do it. He's good in the tackle maybe but he doesn't strike me as someone that can control the tempo.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby aterford » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:58 am

Coman wrote:
There it's the problem. You see a potential regista in every single player while they can't. It could work against Mainz or Bremen. But not in UCL biggest game.

Thiago in a midfield duo why not of course he is good there, but not as #6 in a 4-3-3 if needed. Only Rudy can do that.

Not Tolisso and even less Goretzka.


See, for me the trouble i see is that this vastly overrates Rudy. He's not a bad player but saying things like "only Rudy can do that?" Come on. He is not Pirlo.

First off, Thiago is a better regista than Rudy, full stop. Doesn't matter what formation, he is simply better in every way.

Second, you would admit yourself that 4-3-3 results in "Boring football" and we never play our best in 4-3-3. As it is - Rudy's best position is #6 *in a 4-3-3*. In a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2, etc, we simply have better players. So as it stands the main argument for keeping Rudy past this season is that he plays best in a formation in which Bayern plays their worst. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me to begin with.

Third, when we say "it could work against Mainz or Bremen, but not in big UCL games".....why is it you believe that Tolisso, Thiago, etc can only do it in small BL games while Rudy is the only player we have who can play regista in UCL? Rudy's entire career has been playing against the Mainz's and Bremens of the world - not against the top UCL teams. You're talking about a guy who has played 4 UCL play in his entire career, less than two full game's worth of minutes, and yet he is the ONE guy who can play in the big UCL games? There is a reason we got him for free in the prime of his career. There is a reason the big UCL teams you think he can play well against had no interest in him.

Not trying to disrespect the guy, I like him just fine, and as I've said many times - I think he WILL get more minutes for us than some expect, but he is not the German Xavi. For the most part - players do not spend their entire careers at mid-table clubs on accident. The fact of the matter is that no big clubs were interested and none were in the past - and frankly I don't think we'd have bothered if he wasn't free for us. It was a no-lose proposition - if he is good, we got him for free and we can keep if we want or sell for profit. If he's bad, we still sell and we're only out the wages. Still probably a profit. But, as it is, he's 27, will be 28 next season, and 99% of the time you don't see much significant improvement past that age - for the most part, at this point you know basically what you're getting. We shouldn't expect any noticeable improvement, really - this would be an exception, not the rule.

Finally, Goretzka.
First things first: while he might not be as good at the regista role as Rudy - so perhaps you could argue that he's not as good of a positional fit (though I'll reiterate that Rudy's best position comes in 4-3-3, which is not a good position for us to play in, so...) - but on the whole he's simply a better player. Goretzka at 22 is every bit as good as Rudy at 27 and we can only expect him to improve. There's a reason that he's wanted by Manchester United, Arsenal, Barcelona, Juventus, Liverpool, Manchester City, etc and why Rudy was available for free to us. That is not a coincidence. And of course, we also see that both Transfermarkt and CIES (more accurate) both rate Goretzka as the more valuable player (Transfermarkt has Goretzka at €23m and Rudy at €8m while CIES has them at €23m and €14m, respectively). And we see that Rudy has 21 caps (0 goals/2 assists) while he didn't make his senior debut until 24. Goretzka at age 22 already has 10 caps (4 goals/2 assists) and made his senior debut at 19.

Long story short: as I said previously, the only two players who it really makes sense to get rid of next year are Rudy or Sanches, and unless Sanches utterly flops at Swansea, I don't think that happens - everything Kalle and Uli have said suggests we are invested in him long-term. Selling Rudy for Goretzka *might* make us thinner at Regista I guess (but like i said - Thiago), but overall it's a net improvement for the overall quality of the squad.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:13 pm

aterford wrote:Not trying to disrespect the guy, I like him just fine, and as I've said many times - I think he WILL get more minutes for us than some expect, but he is not the German Xavi. For the most part - players do not spend their entire careers at mid-table clubs on accident. The fact of the matter is that no big clubs were interested and none were in the past - and frankly I don't think we'd have bothered if he wasn't free for us. It was a no-lose proposition - if he is good, we got him for free and we can keep if we want or sell for profit. If he's bad, we still sell and we're only out the wages. Still probably a profit. But, as it is, he's 27, will be 28 next season, and 99% of the time you don't see much significant improvement past that age - for the most part, at this point you know basically what you're getting. We shouldn't expect any noticeable improvement, really - this would be an exception, not the rule.

Just a point about this. Players often stop improving once they gain enough experience and once their bodies hit a physical peak. However, Rudy is lately getting high-level experience that he wasn't getting before, which should help him improve a notch.

Earlier you said he was not Pirlo. You're right: Pirlo was slower than Rudy.

Rudy has not just exceeded my expectations: he's far surpassed them to the extent that I would like to see him start the important matches. This might just turn out to be the transfer of the season.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby aterford » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Yes, he's exceeded expectations, but to be fair I think most had pretty much no expectations to begin with for him. We are talking like this guy who'd went virtually unnoticed until the age of 26-27 like he is now suddenly Zidane with hair. *IF* we play 4-3-3 you could make a case for him starting but if it's a 4-2-3-1 or otherwise he's simply not better than Thiago or Vidal to start in a 2-man midfield. No where close.

At the end of the day, if we sell Rudy for a profit and add Goretzka for free, that's absolutely an improvement to the squad. I don't know that there's a single club in the world who wouldn't make that choice.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby FCB12Forever » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:00 am

Hojbjerg - bought €4m, sold €15m *No chance at Bayern, loaned to S04, heard some rumor he saw Goretzka being a much better talent than him so he lost confidence
--Rode - free, sold ~€12m *Just.... Mediocre player.
--Shaqiri - bought €12m, sold €15m *First season Awesome, then sh1t.
--Mandzukic - bought €13m, sold ~€22.5m *Had problem with Pep
--Can - free, sold €5m *No chance at all
Also perhaps: Costa - bought for €30m, if Juve makes loan permanent they'll reportedly pay like €40m. *Arrogant, Disrespectful to the club, tried to threaten the club, play like AWOL after denied a raise. Never hated a player so much[/quote]

We sold these guys with a profit not because we wanted to sell for profit, it is because they are no longer needed or they simply disrespected the club or someone at the club. The profit was a bonus. Honestly I am so glad we ripped off Juve for that much, Costa sucks so hard and they now understand why he does not deserve a start.

Rudy is different, he is needed and he did not have any offense so far.

Again, I am worried when Vidal got his 3rd (or 4th?) yellow card at 13' today. Only 6 BL games. His red cost us the CL last season. He poses a significant risk in important games: he is a double-edged sword, and this sword has cut us too many times.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby Achilles » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:10 am

If it was in my hands I would re-shape the whole midfield, total rebuild in that department.
I still stand by my words about our weakest link, the midfield, we were top notch with prime Basti era and for a couple of years we were the best team in the world. The big three had their moments, it's the era of the midfield, Barca back then with their trio, now Madrid with their Kroos-Casemiro-Modric are dismantling every opponent's plan because their midfield it's like a clockwork.

Midfield now days is the ultimate power and pulls the strings for everything(except CR7,Messi) we have been downgraded in that department and softened. Our supposed key player in that department, Thiago, isn't stepping up in his role, he needs to play upfront while having two more powerful midfielders behind him to hit his maximum potential and let him do what he does best, playmaking, he is a liability playing more deep even with a pitbull next to him(Vidal) we're vulnerable, we need two pivots and Thiago in front of them.

Goretzka if he maximizes his potential can play that role as the No.8 while next to him will be another similar or more defensive-minded player while Thiago will do his job in a more advanced role competing with other players(like James or Muller) as I said playing Thiago deep in the UCL and big games has been lethal for us and we need to change for the KO rounds. Renato seemed to be the perfect future midfielder for us but...
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby IsiahRashad » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:44 am

Barcelona have pulled out of the race to sign Schalke midfielder Leon Goretzka – opening the door for the likes of Manchester United and Bayern Munich. [source]
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby #12 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:53 am

ManUre? Yeah, he's here...
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby Hardrade » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:22 pm

aterford wrote:Yes, he's exceeded expectations, but to be fair I think most had pretty much no expectations to begin with for him. We are talking like this guy who'd went virtually unnoticed until the age of 26-27 like he is now suddenly Zidane with hair. *IF* we play 4-3-3 you could make a case for him starting but if it's a 4-2-3-1 or otherwise he's simply not better than Thiago or Vidal to start in a 2-man midfield. Nowhere close.

At the end of the day, if we sell Rudy for a profit and add Goretzka for free, that's absolutely an improvement to the squad. I don't know that there's a single club in the world who wouldn't make that choice.


Exactly, the expectations were considerably influenced by his non-existent fee. If he came for 30mil I'm sure that overall sentiment would be quite different.
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Re: Leon Goretzka

Postby #12 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:30 pm

Hardrade wrote:
aterford wrote:Yes, he's exceeded expectations, but to be fair I think most had pretty much no expectations to begin with for him. We are talking like this guy who'd went virtually unnoticed until the age of 26-27 like he is now suddenly Zidane with hair. *IF* we play 4-3-3 you could make a case for him starting but if it's a 4-2-3-1 or otherwise he's simply not better than Thiago or Vidal to start in a 2-man midfield. Nowhere close.

At the end of the day, if we sell Rudy for a profit and add Goretzka for free, that's absolutely an improvement to the squad. I don't know that there's a single club in the world who wouldn't make that choice.


Exactly, the expectations were considerably influenced by his non-existent fee. If he came for 30mil I'm sure that overall sentiment would be quite different.


Yeah, we'd all agree our board is completely insane...
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