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Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby BayernFL117 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:46 pm

Pelin wrote:
MUTU wrote:
#12 wrote:If he were a truly great player he‘d have never gone to PSG... Say all you want about Messi, but the kid could’ve earned at least as much at Shitty or PSG...
He chose an actual club...
No, he could not. His options were to stay at Monaco or play for PSG. No other club could meet Monaco's demands for him.

Nope. Mbappe said that he went for PSG's project and rejected Madrid and City.Madrd propaganda tools said that he went for money, with giving their offer without taxes and PSG's with taxes.

I actually heard the commentators talking about this topic during the game and they said that his family wanted him to stay in France for a little longer because he's still 18. Plus P$G is technically a top club which is what he wanted.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby aterford » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:26 pm

Finished #7 for Ballon d'Or.

Sorry....I get the kid has potential....but he is nowhere near the 7th best player in the world. It's a joke. You don't base "best player" on future potential. Played 90% of games last year at CF and finished ahead of Lewandowski, Cavani, Suarez, Kane....come on.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby FCB12Forever » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:27 am

He seriously deserve some hype, there's no doubt about it. But at current rate it makes no sense. Clearly there 's some marketing campaign behind him.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby Manchu » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:47 am

Mbappe by goalimpact:
Can't see tweet? Click here!
Seen as much more talented than Dembele,
Can't see tweet? Click here!
and not quite as talented as Pulisic:
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Thoughts?
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby BayernFL117 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:33 am

Well one of the reasons I'm guessing is Mbappe has to deal with Neymar, who is always the focal point of that team.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby Manchu » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:03 am

BayernFL117 wrote:Well one of the reasons I'm guessing is Mbappe has to deal with Neymar, who is always the focal point of that team.

That shouldn't have a major effect on goalimpact,* especially considering that Mbappe graph shows a great of continuity from when he played for Monaco. As far as I can tell, all the "main man" stuff that people like talking about has very little effect on player performance as measured by goalimpact although it obviously has a great deal of effect on how many goals players score.

*Neymar being a rather selfish player who likes dribbling into trouble is accounted for by him having a slightly lower goalimpact(than he would otherwise), hence reducing expectations for team performance, so shouldn't have any real affect on how good the algorithm perceives Mbappe's performance.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby aterford » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:28 pm

This is gonna be a great example of "I don't agree with your stats so they're wrong". Regardless of the mechanism for determining that number/algorithm....I'd wager 95% of people are just going to say "I've watched Mbappe play and I rate him more than Pulisic so it's wrong"

Talented player but always thought the hype exceeded the substance a bit
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby MUTU » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:31 pm

aterford wrote:This is gonna be a great example of "I don't agree with your stats so they're wrong". Regardless of the mechanism for determining that number/algorithm....I'd wager 95% of people are just going to say "I've watched Mbappe play and I rate him more than Pulisic so it's wrong"

Talented player but always thought the hype exceeded the substance a bit

I think Pulisic is underrated. I bet most football fans, especially EPL fanboys, don't even know who he is.
But then I think saying he's better than Mbappe... that's just too much.

Pulisic has the potential to be a world class winger.
Mbappe has the potential to be the greatest player in the world.
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm

Manchu wrote:Mbappe by goalimpact:
Can't see tweet? Click here!
Seen as much more talented than Dembele,
Can't see tweet? Click here!
and not quite as talented as Pulisic:
Image
(image source)
Thoughts?
I'd throw a big sum on to BVB for Pulisic instead of blowing it on Bailey or Malcom tbh, and more after seeing those graphs. Since you are the resident expert on Goalimpact, would you care to provide us with the graphs for those 2? I don't even know were you get them.

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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby #12 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:11 pm

1. Goalimpact is not infallible... They still rate Brandt insanely high and the guy is bang average and has always been bang average...
2. Pulisic is great, but impossible to get at this point... Sonce we need a winger and **** up on Sané and Dembélé, Malcom is by far our best option at this point... Of course we could always wait for three more years and rely on Robbery for the problem to dispense of itself while you guys keep dreaming of CL victories ;)
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby aterford » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:37 pm

aterford wrote:This is gonna be a great example of "I don't agree with your stats so they're wrong"


#12 wrote:Goalimpact is not infallible... They still rate Brandt insanely high and the guy is bang average and has always been bang average...


Case in point :lol:
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby #12 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:59 pm

aterford wrote:
aterford wrote:This is gonna be a great example of "I don't agree with your stats so they're wrong"


#12 wrote:Goalimpact is not infallible... They still rate Brandt insanely high and the guy is bang average and has always been bang average...


Case in point :lol:


Say what you want: world class players do not extend at Neverkusen...
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby aterford » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:09 pm

#12 wrote:
aterford wrote:
aterford wrote:This is gonna be a great example of "I don't agree with your stats so they're wrong"


#12 wrote:Goalimpact is not infallible... They still rate Brandt insanely high and the guy is bang average and has always been bang average...


Case in point :lol:


Say what you want: world class players do not extend at Neverkusen...


Good thing he hasn't signed that extension yet then, eh? :wink:
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby #12 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:09 pm

You said it: not yet
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Re: Kylian Mbappé [Kylian Mbappé Lottin]

Postby Manchu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:11 am

MUTU wrote:I think Pulisic is underrated. I bet most football fans, especially EPL fanboys, don't even know who he is.
But then I think saying he's better than Mbappe... that's just too much.

Pulisic has the potential to be a world class winger.
Mbappe has the potential to be the greatest player in the world.

For better or for worse, goalimpact still has Mbappe as excellent young talent(peak of ~150 at 19 is really good and around where Messi was at that age), it just has Pulisic is an absurd talent. I think I only know of three players who have ever had a sustained estimated peak of above 160 when below 20: Pulisic, Brandt, and Donnarumma.

As for why Pulisic might have a better peak than Mbappe despite Mbappe being appearing to be the better player to most people, I have some ideas:
1. League quality-It's much harder for Pulisic to look impressive on a daily basis because he's going up against far better defenders than Mbappe is. The gap between the Bundesliga and Ligue 1 is, on average(there are certainly some excellent defensive players in Ligue 1 like Luis Gustavo), really big.

2. Defense- Pulisic probably gives a far better defensive contribution than Mbappe, and this is really important for goalimpact. Moreover, Mbappe staying high up on the pitch rather than dropping back to defend might make him look better by giving him more opportunities to score goals, but it's probably detrimental to the team.

3. Intelligence/random effects-Long ago I noticed that the main unifying factor among players with high goalimpacts(other than being well regarded players that most people think are pretty good) is that they tended to have high football IQs. I think that the explanation is that intelligent players do the "little things" right, thus greatly helping their team. For example, an intelligent player knows what spaces they should occupy in buildup play to force the other team to open up a little bit, what runs they should make in the final third in order to distract the defense as much as possible, what areas they should move to while pressing in order to make the other team's buildup a little harder, etc. Think Thomas Muller's Raumdeutering but on a smaller scale. Obviously the advantage gained by each individual action is small but cumulative advantage is big and, although players rarely get credit for doing the "little things" right, makes the difference between good players and great players. It is my suspicion, particularly considering his ability to play as a 10, that Pulisic is better at this part of the game than Mbappe.

Of course, both of them are very young, and it is very possible that Mbappe will ultimately turn out to be the better player, it's just more likely that Pulisic will. They could also both completely fail and never develop, but I wouldn't bet on that at all.

PunkCapitalist wrote:I'd throw a big sum on to BVB for Pulisic instead of blowing it on Bailey or Malcom tbh, and more after seeing those graphs. Since you are the resident expert on Goalimpact, would you care to provide us with the graphs for those 2? I don't even know were you get them.

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I usually just ask for the graphs on twitter from the [tweet=https://twitter.com/Goalimpact]Goalimpact account[/tweet], or repost them after the account posts them(usually on someone's request). If you have a twitter account, you can too.

That being said, I apologize but I don't think I'll ask for either right now, partially because I don't want to be too onerous and partially because I'm not sure I want to know what Malcom's goalimpact is now that our club seems committed to blowing 60+ million euros on him. Nothing stopping you from asking, if you want, though, and I definitely will ask if either officially transfer to us.
#12 wrote:1. Goalimpact is not infallible... They still rate Brandt insanely high and the guy is bang average and has always been bang average...
2. Pulisic is great, but impossible to get at this point... Sonce we need a winger and **** up on Sané and Dembélé, Malcom is by far our best option at this point... Of course we could always wait for three more years and rely on Robbery for the problem to dispense of itself while you guys keep dreaming of CL victories ;)

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Anyways, I'm surprised that more people aren't complaining about Dembele being rated so much lower than Pulisic and Mbappe. Has being injured caused his stock to sink so low? Not so long ago I was regularly hearing how he was definitely a future top 3 player. To be honest, I don't rate him incredibly highly because he doesn't seem to have enough tactically intelligence to go with his skills and natural talent, but he's still very young and might improve.
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