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Kai Havertz

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Is Havertz worth 120m euros?

Yes
15
33%
No
31
67%
 
Total votes : 46

Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Evan van Essen » Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:34 pm

Firefox1234 wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!
I dont get why we are selling tolliso. Is it just for the money? Or for space in the squad? Cause if the latter is the case, then why do we sell our cm back-up instead of our cam back-up goretzka.

Atleast (imo) it makes no sense to keep goretzka if we buy havertz. Goretzka mostly played good for us on the cam position. And when played on the cm spot he was often not any good (imo). So do we plan to make him our main cm back-up? After selling tolliso and buying havertz? Cause if we sell tolisso we should also sell goretzka to get zakaria. Which probally isn't realistic, because he would want game time and we have thiago-kimmich as main combo on the midfield. But he would be a way better back-up/rotational player for the cm/cdm spot.

Also i feel tolliso hasn't really been given a propper chance under flick. I love flick and i think he is doing great. But i think tolisso deserves more playing minutes to prove himself. I guess im just biast towards tolisso cause i love him and the fact he was a bayern fan before and ill hope we keep him.

Would love to hear your opinion. Also dont know if this should be posted here or in tolisso's thread.

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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:09 pm

Evan van Essen wrote:I dont get why we are selling tolliso. Is it just for the money? Or for space in the squad? Cause if the latter is the case, then why do we sell our cm back-up instead of our cam back-up goretzka.

At least (imo) it makes no sense to keep goretzka if we buy havertz. Goretzka mostly played good for us on the cam position. And when played on the cm spot he was often not any good (imo). So do we plan to make him our main cm back-up? After selling tolliso and buying havertz? Cause if we sell tolisso we should also sell goretzka to get zakaria. Which probally isn't realistic, because he would want game time and we have thiago-kimmich as main combo on the midfield. But he would be a way better back-up/rotational player for the cm/cdm spot.

Also i feel tolliso hasn't really been given a propper chance under flick. I love flick and i think he is doing great. But i think tolisso deserves more playing minutes to prove himself. I guess im just biast towards tolisso cause i love him and the fact he was a bayern fan before and ill hope we keep him.

Would love to hear your opinion. Also dont know if this should be posted here or in tolisso's thread.

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This part confuses me too. At the moment Goreztka is behind Muller already for CAM, which means potentially spending close to 100m on Havertz so he can sit behind Muller and Goretzka? Maybe Flick has a plan in mind that we dont know about cause that is the only way this makes sense to me too.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:56 pm

Kai plays more behind.

If we are to keep the wingers (I am sure that we will) 4.3.3 Thiago Kimmich to his right Kai to his left Mueller and Goretzka as their subs
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Evan van Essen » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:46 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Kai plays more behind.

If we are to keep the wingers (I am sure that we will) 4.3.3 Thiago Kimmich to his right Kai to his left Mueller and Goretzka as their subs
So you're saying kai is a cm and not a cam?

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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:49 pm

Evan van Essen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Kai plays more behind.

If we are to keep the wingers (I am sure that we will) 4.3.3 Thiago Kimmich to his right Kai to his left Mueller and Goretzka as their subs
So you're saying kai is a cm and not a cam?

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I stand to be connected but if I remember correctly lately he was playing in that role for B04
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Evan van Essen » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:57 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
Evan van Essen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Kai plays more behind.

If we are to keep the wingers (I am sure that we will) 4.3.3 Thiago Kimmich to his right Kai to his left Mueller and Goretzka as their subs
So you're saying kai is a cm and not a cam?

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I stand to be connected but if I remember correctly lately he was playing in that role for B04
But do we actually wanna play him as a cm instead of (what i think is his best position) cam? i also dont think the switch in formation would benefit our tactics. But what do u think?

Edit: also dont they play him deeper because they lost brandt as their deeper lying playmaker. And because of this havertz was less effective so they moved him further back?

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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Fénix » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:04 pm

I'm not sure whether 4-3-3 with Havertz, Kimmich and Thiago would be smart at all. Even 4-2-3-1 because there is no real classic midfielder to cover Havertz and Thiago, even Thiago and Kimmich.
The same I think if I put Müller instead of Havertz.

In any case just having all of them in our team promises a lot.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:46 pm

My ideal form would be wingerless...
4222
4312
3412

I imagine for example
Werner plus Lewa
Or Serge plus Lewa

Kai plus Mueller or Leon behind those two...
Davies lwb and dest or pavard as rwb
Cm Thiago plus Kimmich
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby bastos80 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:25 pm

ramsej84 wrote:My ideal form would be wingerless...
4222
4312
3412

I imagine for example
Werner plus Lewa
Or Serge plus Lewa

Kai plus Mueller or Leon behind those two...
Davies lwb and dest or pavard as rwb
Cm Thiago plus Kimmich


Tell me 1 succesful team in the last 10 years that played without wingers.
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby tuscanybayern » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:05 pm

bastos80 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:My ideal form would be wingerless...
4222
4312
3412

I imagine for example
Werner plus Lewa
Or Serge plus Lewa

Kai plus Mueller or Leon behind those two...
Davies lwb and dest or pavard as rwb
Cm Thiago plus Kimmich


Tell me 1 succesful team in the last 10 years that played without wingers.


ramsej be like: Error 404

beside that, I'd argue that since Inter and 07/08 Barcelona both played with three strikers, we have to go back to the glorious 442 days and to AC Milan...so it's more like 15 years....
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby #12 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:36 pm

bastos80 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:My ideal form would be wingerless...
4222
4312
3412

I imagine for example
Werner plus Lewa
Or Serge plus Lewa

Kai plus Mueller or Leon behind those two...
Davies lwb and dest or pavard as rwb
Cm Thiago plus Kimmich


Tell me 1 succesful team in the last 10 years that played without wingers.

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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:34 pm

You are right,probably only the Spanish NT ...
But who says that we cannot start a new trend...?

I remember at Euro 2008 nobody played 4.2.3.1. (I stand to be corrected)
I remember that before the match between Portugal v Germany I was thinking what would the best system be to hold Portugal and esp Ronaldo.
My mind went seven years back when my coach used to deploy us into a 4231-formation... back then nobody had ever seen something similar...
Probably my team was the first in Malta to play that system.
Germany played exactly that.

I might be fantasizing ... but I have that impression
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby tuscanybayern » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:31 pm

thing is, after its rise in late 00s tiki taka created as a byproduct teams which are very proficient in defending the center of the field by crowding it with midfielders and defenders...and those are ironically the ones playing without wingers...above all Atletico Madrid but also Mourinho's Chelsea and Conte's Juventus. I don't know how you plan to defeat those teams using two traditional strikers in the box and one #10, or with one striker and a winger.

You need two wingers to stretch the opposition defense and create numerical superiority in the center

so to sum up:

don't play 442/4222 unless you are Diego Simeone and you team is Atletico Madrid - boring boring football

don't play 352/3412/4312 unless you are Conte's or Allegri's Juventus - boring boring boring boring boring boring football
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Evan van Essen » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:34 am

tuscanybayern wrote:thing is, after its rise in late 00s tiki taka created as a byproduct teams which are very proficient in defending the center of the field by crowding it with midfielders and defenders...and those are ironically the ones playing without wingers...above all Atletico Madrid but also Mourinho's Chelsea and Conte's Juventus. I don't know how you plan to defeat those teams using two traditional strikers in the box and one #10, or with one striker and a winger.

You need two wingers to stretch the opposition defense and create numerical superiority in the center

so to sum up:

don't play 442/4222 unless you are Diego Simeone and you team is Atletico Madrid - boring boring football

don't play 352/3412/4312 unless you are Conte's or Allegri's Juventus - boring boring boring boring boring boring football
Bit of topic, but tifo football made a podcast about the change tiki taka made in football. I think it was the porcast 2 weeke ago. Quite an interesting podcast to listen to if you're intressted.

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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:22 am

ramsej84 wrote:Kai plays more behind.

If we are to keep the wingers (I am sure that we will) 4.3.3 Thiago Kimmich to his right Kai to his left Mueller and Goretzka as their subs
Müller Is not going to be anyone's sub.

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