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Kai Havertz

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Is Havertz worth 120m euros?

Yes
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No
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Total votes : 46

Re: Kai Havertz

Postby Firefox1234 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:26 pm

He's definitely making a good case for himself.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby IsiahRashad » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:18 pm

He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby bastos80 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:28 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.


"all season long"
He's been excellent since the winter break.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby #12 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:30 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.

Well, I hope he really ONLY wants to come to Munich, we're not getting any other way... I mean worth or not, depends on the market as well... I don’t think we SHOULD pay 100m+...
But I want to see him here regardless...
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby bastos80 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:35 pm

#12 wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.

Well, I hope he really ONLY wants to come to Munich, we're not getting any other way... I mean worth or not, depends on the market as well... I don’t think we SHOULD pay 100m+...
But I want to see him here regardless...


I think 90m + Bonuses would be fair. And if Leverkusen are so certain he's that good, these bonuses will most likely be guaranteed anyways.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby #12 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:45 pm

bastos80 wrote:
#12 wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.

Well, I hope he really ONLY wants to come to Munich, we're not getting any other way... I mean worth or not, depends on the market as well... I don’t think we SHOULD pay 100m+...
But I want to see him here regardless...


I think 90m + Bonuses would be fair. And if Leverkusen are so certain he's that good, these bonuses will most likely be guaranteed anyways.

I think you’re right but wasn’t there something about us valuing him around 70?
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby IsiahRashad » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:54 pm

bastos80 wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.


"all season long"
He's been excellent since the winter break.


Looks like we have different criteria for players then, which is fine.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby bastos80 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:00 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:
bastos80 wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:He was really average all season long, but he's playing good and putting great numbers in the last 4 games - 2 goals and 3 assists. Not saying he's worth 130m still.


"all season long"
He's been excellent since the winter break.


Looks like we have different criteria for players then, which is fine.



Even when we go by your measure of goals and assists, if you exclude the last 4 games, 6 goals/assists in 7 games is still great. And that's even without considering how well he's been playing apart from those goal contributions. I'm open to hearing why he's been average prior to those 4 games though.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby aterford » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:32 pm

130m is still pretty steep ask (but I don't think that was ever realistic, even in last season's form), but he's been playing excellent lately.
I see some similarities to Muller with Havertz, and not just in the style/positional sense. If you've seen the post I left yesterday regarding Muller, it goes more in-depth, but basically the gist of it is that under Jupp and Pep we had much more quality wing play and this allowed for Muller to play more of a "finisher" role, just being able to work in space and get on the end of balls played into the area. Our wings have certainly declined post-Pep (and I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, per se), so this has forced Muller into more of a 'creator' role, with less space for 'finisher'. But his xG and xA and most 'creation' statistics have remained relatively consistent, even when his finishing hasn't been perfect. And so in some ways, people 'expected' Muller in his prime years to be like the 15/16 Muller that was scoring left and right for fun. He hasn't been that player, but he's played in a different way and still found himself amongst the most effective players in the world at his position.
In the same way, I think Brandt leaving has had a big impact on Havertz' role. Whereas last season he could play more of a just 'finisher' role, with Brandt gone he's effectively often found himself tasked with both creating chances and finishing them. It's an adjustment, to be sure, but it doesn't mean he's declined or that last season was a fluke - just different circumstances, different approaches to play, and different aggregate results. But the underlying player is still largely the same.

In whatever case, goes to show that we probably shouldn't write off players after just a bad couple of months - especially young ones.
Bastos80 said it and I've pretty much in agreement that I think it'll be something more like 80, 90m plus bonuses and that's fine. MAYBE could reach that 130m number if every bonus is reached, but that would still surprise me.

Think there's pretty much a zero percent chance anyone plays 130m for him straight-up, and that's fine too. Leverkusen's 130m "valuation" seemed speculative to begin with and was based wholly off the price that Felix sold for - which was effectively a release clause fee, rather than a "market rate" price, so not really a fair bar to set a non-release clause player's price by, anyways. Seems the media is more set on that number than Leverkusen have ever really said.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby IsiahRashad » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:04 pm

bastos80 wrote:Even when we go by your measure of goals and assists, if you exclude the last 4 games, 6 goals/assists in 7 games is still great. And that's even without considering how well he's been playing apart from those goal contributions. I'm open to hearing why he's been average prior to those 4 games though.


Well, some people evaluate his actual performances, which if you look as a whole, and by that I mean the whole season, are good, but not nothing spectacular. And others always measure it by the sky-high price tag, which makes everything not look good enough. I don't think someone who was straight missing for the first 20 games of his club while getting almost all the minutes possible - no matter what his name is - Havertz, Sancho, Sané or whatever, deserve to be paid so much money (100+), when you're registering 2 goals and 1 assist (against Paderborn and Augsburg - not BVB or Bayern) in 20 games.

Yes, he's young, he's going to get better and better with time, but he's definitely not the "superstar" for who I want Bayern to break the bank account for.

I can't call someone's showings excellent since even in his best games - he's doing a lot of bad things on the pitch. For example - I watched very closely the first game of Bayer against Porto, when he scored the second penalty, after missing the first one - just in the first 15 minutes, he lost the ball 4 times without being put under pressure. Also, he lost the ball 7 more times before the match end. His shot at the crossbar in the 17th minute was a super bad miss, seriously - I don't know how he missed that.

Another game which I followed closely was when they played Hoffenheim - almost no impact to the game - looked slow on 1 on 1 situations, I didn't count how many balls he lost in this game, but in this game, I realised something which we all see while watching him - he's passing the ball in the "safe zone" or back - seconds after that he's going back to the ball and he's taking it back himself from the player who received the pass earlier. While this is not a problem if your name is Iniesta because you know he's going to try to make something out of nothing, it is a problem when you're doing this and you're staying & holding the ball without any dynamics.

Of course, Havertz is playing better again, but I think he is far from being the player from the last season. Last season he was much better, even though in the last few games his talent became visible again. If he keeps playing good in the remaining games - we can talk again, but for now, I'm done with this topic.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby #12 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:22 pm

aterford wrote:130m is still pretty steep ask (but I don't think that was ever realistic, even in last season's form), but he's been playing excellent lately.
I see some similarities to Muller with Havertz, and not just in the style/positional sense. If you've seen the post I left yesterday regarding Muller, it goes more in-depth, but basically the gist of it is that under Jupp and Pep we had much more quality wing play and this allowed for Muller to play more of a "finisher" role, just being able to work in space and get on the end of balls played into the area. Our wings have certainly declined post-Pep (and I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, per se), so this has forced Muller into more of a 'creator' role, with less space for 'finisher'. But his xG and xA and most 'creation' statistics have remained relatively consistent, even when his finishing hasn't been perfect. And so in some ways, people 'expected' Muller in his prime years to be like the 15/16 Muller that was scoring left and right for fun. He hasn't been that player, but he's played in a different way and still found himself amongst the most effective players in the world at his position.
In the same way, I think Brandt leaving has had a big impact on Havertz' role. Whereas last season he could play more of a just 'finisher' role, with Brandt gone he's effectively often found himself tasked with both creating chances and finishing them. It's an adjustment, to be sure, but it doesn't mean he's declined or that last season was a fluke - just different circumstances, different approaches to play, and different aggregate results. But the underlying player is still largely the same.

In whatever case, goes to show that we probably shouldn't write off players after just a bad couple of months - especially young ones.
Bastos80 said it and I've pretty much in agreement that I think it'll be something more like 80, 90m plus bonuses and that's fine. MAYBE could reach that 130m number if every bonus is reached, but that would still surprise me.

Think there's pretty much a zero percent chance anyone plays 130m for him straight-up, and that's fine too. Leverkusen's 130m "valuation" seemed speculative to begin with and was based wholly off the price that Felix sold for - which was effectively a release clause fee, rather than a "market rate" price, so not really a fair bar to set a non-release clause player's price by, anyways. Seems the media is more set on that number than Leverkusen have ever really said.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby bastos80 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:58 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:
bastos80 wrote:Even when we go by your measure of goals and assists, if you exclude the last 4 games, 6 goals/assists in 7 games is still great. And that's even without considering how well he's been playing apart from those goal contributions. I'm open to hearing why he's been average prior to those 4 games though.


Well, some people evaluate his actual performances, which if you look as a whole, and by that I mean the whole season, are good, but not nothing spectacular. And others always measure it by the sky-high price tag, which makes everything not look good enough. I don't think someone who was straight missing for the first 20 games of his club while getting almost all the minutes possible - no matter what his name is - Havertz, Sancho, Sané or whatever, deserve to be paid so much money (100+), when you're registering 2 goals and 1 assist (against Paderborn and Augsburg - not BVB or Bayern) in 20 games.

Yes, he's young, he's going to get better and better with time, but he's definitely not the "superstar" for who I want Bayern to break the bank account for.

I can't call someone's showings excellent since even in his best games - he's doing a lot of bad things on the pitch. For example - I watched very closely the first game of Bayer against Porto, when he scored the second penalty, after missing the first one - just in the first 15 minutes, he lost the ball 4 times without being put under pressure. Also, he lost the ball 7 more times before the match end. His shot at the crossbar in the 17th minute was a super bad miss, seriously - I don't know how he missed that.

Another game which I followed closely was when they played Hoffenheim - almost no impact to the game - looked slow on 1 on 1 situations, I didn't count how many balls he lost in this game, but in this game, I realised something which we all see while watching him - he's passing the ball in the "safe zone" or back - seconds after that he's going back to the ball and he's taking it back himself from the player who received the pass earlier. While this is not a problem if your name is Iniesta because you know he's going to try to make something out of nothing, it is a problem when you're doing this and you're staying & holding the ball without any dynamics.

Of course, Havertz is playing better again, but I think he is far from being the player from the last season. Last season he was much better, even though in the last few games his talent became visible again. If he keeps playing good in the remaining games - we can talk again, but for now, I'm done with this topic.



Well thanks for agreeing with me after all and calling his performance over the whole season "good".
Besides the first 20 games you're talking about do not influence my judgment of his performance after the winter break.
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby IsiahRashad » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:59 pm

Kai Havertz naturally remains on the focus of Bayern for the summer [Kicker]
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:33 am

JUVE, HAVERTZ PREFERISCE RESTARE IN GERMANIA

In Germania si torna a parlare di Kai Havertz, centrocampista tedesco del Bayer Leverkusen cercato dalla Juventus. Secondo i media tedeschi il classe 1999 preferirebbe restare in Bundesliga per questo andrà al Bayern Monaco dicendo no a bianconeri e Liverpool.



Kai wants to stay in Germany... Juve and Pool were all interested
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Re: Kai Havertz

Postby xevi » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:16 pm

I read some months ago barça wasn't interesed on havertz anymore (mundodeportivo), and anyway they havem't the money and in madrid was a topic too, but they have an emergency upfront and needs on defence too. Also odegaard will be back if modric leaves, so PL is the real competition i think.

I don't think bayern has to pay like 130 but we shouldn't miss him.

Anyway the problem is see right now with havertz is muller and goretzka are doing good as AM ao if muller is staying how are bayern going to solve that? Muller is great as AM and goretzka is much better there than as CM.

Imo they really want to sign havertz and muller doesn't seem really apreciatted as there are talks on an extension with him but not on muller, he was given all the freedom to play at olympic games, but also to leave the club if you want. Ok he's a legend andand he can do what he wants to but it's like as they don't plan much with him..


Also coutinho, perisic and muller are a lot attacking players leaving and we would need something else apart of sane and havertz.
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