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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:13 pm

And I don't like either, so I find myself arguing against those who regularly insult Iniesta by comparing Coutinho to him, but also against those who use meaningless stats to claim Müller's better. Fuck :?
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:22 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:And I don't like either, so I find myself arguing against those who regularly insult Iniesta by comparing Coutinho to him, but also against those who use meaningless stats to claim Müller's better. **** :?

Claiming assists are meaningless for a #10 is as inexplicable as finding it meaningless to compare strikers based on the amount of goals they score per minute played, or comparing goalkeepers on the amount of saves they do.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:37 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:And I don't like either, so I find myself arguing against those who regularly insult Iniesta by comparing Coutinho to him, but also against those who use meaningless stats to claim Müller's better. **** :?

Claiming assists are meaningless for a #10 is as inexplicable as finding it meaningless to compare strikers based on the amount of goals they score per minute played, or comparing goalkeepers on the amount of saves they do.

Why don’t you go ahead and do that, see the number of irrelevant players who come up at the top of those lists. Just promise me you won’t say De Gea’s better than Neuer.

The stats only say Player X made more assist than Player Y, or Keeper A made more saves than Keeper B. The stats don’t say that Player X is better than Player Y, or Keeper A is better than Keeper B.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:42 pm

So Gerd Mueller was a pretty shitty player, right? I mean all he did was just score. How dull.

Who cares about winning the match? We're here for the joga bonito. :?

Football is a match that is won by a well-specified statistic: you need to score more goals than your opponents. Therefore, those who contribute a lot to this end statistic are being important to their team. I'm not saying it's the only way to be important to your team, but if you are indeed contributing a lot to this end statistic, you're just undroppable, just like Lewandowski is at the moment. Now Manchu just compiled a statistic that shows that Mueller has 2.96 scorer points per 90 minutes. That's incredibly high and no one in our squad has those numbers, not even Lewandowski who is playing more offensively than Mueller.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby zozon » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:48 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:And I don't like either, so I find myself arguing against those who regularly insult Iniesta by comparing Coutinho to him, but also against those who use meaningless stats to claim Müller's better. **** :?


No one compared Coutinho to Iniesta ever, it was Muller vs Iniesta.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:51 pm

MUTU wrote:So Gerd Mueller was a pretty shitty player, right? I mean all he did was just score. How dull.

Who cares about winning the match? We're here for the joga bonito. :?

Didn’t expect you resort to rhetorics like that this quickly, lost the plot. Never suggested that having a lot of goals means you’re bad. But you obviously did that because you were struggling to reconcile your point after I brought up De Gea vs. Neuer. If you don’t put context into their saves, De Gea would look better, which should disgust you as much as it does me. Telling people to not use stats is probably a lost cause, but at least use context alongside them, yeah?

Although since you asked, Gerd Müller probably wouldn’t make as much impact in the modern game as Gomez or Lewandowski, and would definitely have scored less in today’s game, provided he can even meet the physical standards of the game.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:56 pm

Manchu wrote:Since the beginning of Coutinho's first start for Bayern,* Coutinho has played 512 minutes and has two goals and three assists, for a total of five scorer points. He has one scorer point every 102.4 minutes of play, or 0.88 scorer points per 90 minutes.

Over the same period, Muller has played only 152 minutes and has one goals and four assists, for a total of five scorer points. He has one scorer point every 30.4 minutes of play, or 2.96 scorer points per 90 minutes.

I will allow you to consider the significance of one attacking midfielder achieving the same number of scorer points as the other in 30% of the playing time. I expect many spurious and completely nonfactual comparisons to made between Coutinho and Iniesta.


*This was when we dropped the 4-3-3 and switched to 4-2-3-1.

I'd like to add that during this same period you're saying, Robert Lewandowski played 602 minutes and had 9 goals and 0 assists, for a total of 9 scorer points. He therefore has one scorer point every 66.9 minutes of play, or 1.35 scorer points per 90 minutes, LESS THAN HALF of Mueller, despite playing in a more offensive position and being considered completely undroppable.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:02 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:So Gerd Mueller was a pretty shitty player, right? I mean all he did was just score. How dull.

Who cares about winning the match? We're here for the joga bonito. :?

Didn’t expect you resort to rhetorics like that this quickly, lost the plot. Never suggested that having a lot of goals means you’re bad. But you obviously did that because you were struggling to reconcile your point after I brought up De Gea vs. Neuer. If you don’t put context into their saves, De Gea would look better, which should disgust you as much as it does me. Telling people to not use stats is probably a lost cause, but at least use context alongside them, yeah?

Although since you asked, Gerd Müller probably wouldn’t make as much impact in the modern game as Gomez or Lewandowski, and would definitely have scored less in today’s game, provided he can even meet the physical standards of the game.

I lost the plot because I wasn't the one comparing two goalkeepers playing for different clubs with not even a single competition in common (ah, it feels so great making reference to the fact that Man Utd are not in the CL :mrgreen:)? If you want to use save percentages to compare Ulreich to Neuer, go ahead. If you want to do that with Neuer and De Gea, I... well, I don't agree with drawing conclusions on that given they won't get to face similar types of shots, but I guess you can go ahead, I'd expect Neuer to win anyway.

Also agreed re Gerd Müller, but that counts for every past legend. Football has evolved and improved since. Pele would also look ordinary today. But I wasn't trying to "bring prime Gerd Müller to 2019", I don't have a time machine anyway. I'm using him as an example simply because he was a player who didn't seem to do much, except score goals, and a lot of them at that. At the same time, there were strikers from that era who could really dribble, have great ball control, do fancy tricks, but well, not score. I'm sure there were strikers who fit this description. I just can't come up with a name, because, well, they're simply not legends.

And, if Thomas Mueller keeps up this 2.96 scorer point per 90, he'd only be about 2.5x more efficient than Gerd Mueller's prime. But some people are too hellbent on seeing him on the bench for whatever reason.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:22 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:So Gerd Mueller was a pretty shitty player, right? I mean all he did was just score. How dull.

Who cares about winning the match? We're here for the joga bonito. :?

Didn’t expect you resort to rhetorics like that this quickly, lost the plot. Never suggested that having a lot of goals means you’re bad. But you obviously did that because you were struggling to reconcile your point after I brought up De Gea vs. Neuer. If you don’t put context into their saves, De Gea would look better, which should disgust you as much as it does me. Telling people to not use stats is probably a lost cause, but at least use context alongside them, yeah?

Although since you asked, Gerd Müller probably wouldn’t make as much impact in the modern game as Gomez or Lewandowski, and would definitely have scored less in today’s game, provided he can even meet the physical standards of the game.

I lost the plot because I wasn't the one comparing two goalkeepers playing for different clubs with not even a single competition in common (ah, it feels so great making reference to the fact that Man Utd are not in the CL :mrgreen:)? If you want to use save percentages to compare Ulreich to Neuer, go ahead. If you want to do that with Neuer and De Gea, I... well, I don't agree with drawing conclusions on that given they won't get to face similar types of shots, but I guess you can go ahead, I'd expect Neuer to win anyway.


So you arbitrarily draw the line on the competitions? Neuer and Ulreich wouldn’t have played against the same teams or at the same stadia the past two years, they might not even have the same hours of sleep before they play the matches, so what makes comparing those two okay?

A player scoring 10 goals in 5 past games doesn’t mean the player will score 10 goals in 5 future games. Football statistics are not valid, they’re just vain attempts at putting numbers on things to make them look sophisticated. By all means talk about how Müller’s a good player because he has good positional awareness, but don’t make the assists produced late in the second half while he came as a sub against tired defences look more than that.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:24 pm

MUTU wrote:And, if Thomas Mueller keeps up this 2.96 scorer point per 90, he'd only be about 2.5x more efficient than Gerd Mueller's prime. But some people are too hellbent on seeing him on the bench for whatever reason.

Yeah, and you know he absolutely won’t. I’m not saying that because I don’t like Müller, I’m saying that because you know it’s impossible to keep those numbers up.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:45 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:So you arbitrarily draw the line on the competitions? Neuer and Ulreich wouldn’t have played against the same teams or at the same stadia the past two years, they might not even have the same hours of sleep before they play the matches, so what makes comparing those two okay?

Actually, with goalkeepers it is indeed tricky, because they don't often end up playing in the very same match, unlike with outfield players. But you can still draw comparisons.

Dumbledore7 wrote:A player scoring 10 goals in 5 past games doesn’t mean the player will score 10 goals in 5 future games. Football statistics are not valid, they’re just vain attempts at putting numbers on things to make them look sophisticated. By all means talk about how Müller’s a good player because he has good positional awareness, but don’t make the assists produced late in the second half while he came as a sub against tired defences look more than that.

Look, you're right. But that counts for everyone. Just because Lewandowski is scoring a lot of goals right now, doesn't mean he will score a lot in future either, but you wouldn't propose we play Arp instead in an important match. And you wouldn't just play Hoffmann in a CL KO while relegating an in-form Neuer to the bench. Coaches base their lineup on what they see in training and based on their past matches. We armchair critics don't even have the former part to work with; we only base it on their past matches.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby IsiahRashad » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:45 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Yeah, and you know he absolutely won’t. I’m not saying that because I don’t like Müller, I’m saying that because you know it’s impossible to keep those numbers up.


Why they even play the game of football ? They just need to multiply the expected goals of the both teams and the team with the bigger number wins !
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:And, if Thomas Mueller keeps up this 2.96 scorer point per 90, he'd only be about 2.5x more efficient than Gerd Mueller's prime. But some people are too hellbent on seeing him on the bench for whatever reason.

Yeah, and you know he absolutely won’t. I’m not saying that because I don’t like Müller, I’m saying that because you know it’s impossible to keep those numbers up.

Of course not. But in form that's so good we agree that it's "impossible to keep those numbers up", benching him is 'criminal'. That's all. I ask again, because no one dared to answer my simple question: what more does Mueller need to do to get more playing time?
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:09 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:And, if Thomas Mueller keeps up this 2.96 scorer point per 90, he'd only be about 2.5x more efficient than Gerd Mueller's prime. But some people are too hellbent on seeing him on the bench for whatever reason.

Yeah, and you know he absolutely won’t. I’m not saying that because I don’t like Müller, I’m saying that because you know it’s impossible to keep those numbers up.

Of course not. But in form that's so good we agree that it's "impossible to keep those numbers up", benching him is 'criminal'. That's all. I ask again, because no one dared to answer my simple question: what more does Mueller need to do to get more playing time?
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:40 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:And, if Thomas Mueller keeps up this 2.96 scorer point per 90, he'd only be about 2.5x more efficient than Gerd Mueller's prime. But some people are too hellbent on seeing him on the bench for whatever reason.

Yeah, and you know he absolutely won’t. I’m not saying that because I don’t like Müller, I’m saying that because you know it’s impossible to keep those numbers up.

Of course not. But in form that's so good we agree that it's "impossible to keep those numbers up", benching him is 'criminal'. That's all. I ask again, because no one dared to answer my simple question: what more does Mueller need to do to get more playing time?

If he keeps producing only in cameo appearances, why should we change that? There's no form to talk about here, he wouldn't have looked nearly as good, especially from a /90 stat point of view, as a starting member. Especially considering he's been regularly brought in as an impact sub for a deliberate tactical change to confuse the opponents.

Also, seeing as you believe what the coach sees in training matters, surely more of a question for Kovac? I don't think either Coutinho or Müller should be starting, for the record.
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