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Robert Lewandowski

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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:26 pm

He's not even in top 10 in conversation rate in the top 5 leagues, what's about that? I don't remember another striker in Bayern bitching that much like him. Hate me.

I will provide the stats later, since I'm writing from my phone.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby aterford » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:07 pm

For a guy who's seemingly so concerned with his public image and spreading his brand, he really doesn't seem too concerned with appearing likable....
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Dumbledore7 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:12 pm

MoFattal wrote:Let's say the wings failed him 80% of the times. How about those remaining 20% where he had more than good enough chances to score some very important goals for us and failed? If he isn't our Messi/Ronaldo to be able to score those crucial goals, then by no means he has the right to act like Messi/Ronaldo and call out the rest of his teammates.

This would be a perfect example if we're talking about 100 moments of this per game. But that 20% boiled down to around 3 chances in each Madrid games, and not all of them are good chances.

I personally don't tend to criticise strikers much in general for missing chances. I think things like conversion rate, number of shots and shots on target are useless without context. You can also make mistakes - a couple off-moments. If we are to use the best statistical estimate as a metric, I would be more interested in the xG per player against the quality of the shot, because at least that weighs the quality of the chance.

Going back to your analogy, if your 20% were really just 3 chances, Lewandowski can only have a conversion rate of 100%, 67%, 33% or 0%. Not a statistic of significant note.

More generally then, why do Lewandowski (or generically any player) perform significantly better against lesser opponent? My hypothesis is because the quality of chances created relative to the quality of the opponent is much higher, so when facing better teams you should proportionately increase the quality of your chances to make the better teams look smaller. This is a team effort - which Lewandowski is a part of, no doubt, but there's a clear role assigned to our wingers (simply because of our system) to release the chances.

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Right, simple then: what if it's not physically possible for him to perform because the team is shit? To me, this is clearly the case - if Lewandowski did perform, the problem's still there. And I don't want to hear "well he should figure it out because he gets paid". Literally only Messi and Ronaldo have any right to even consider that possiblity.

There's no problem in the striker position, the problem stems from the wings.

Are you implying that Bayern didn't have enough scoring opportunities against Real Madrid last season?

So was it the chances or the refereeing then? :P

No, I wasn't implying that there weren't enough scoring opportunities. Won't go into much detail apart from my two cents above.

What I've been trying to say is, having players close to the level of Robben and Ribery would've done things on top of this, whether it's scoring goals themselves or carving an unsaveable scoring opportunity for a striker - 2013 Bayern would have found a way out in spite of the Ulreich mistake, in spite of Navas' great game, in spite of the refereeing.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby MUTU » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:57 pm

Dumbledore7, a poor performance by a striker is not measured by the amount of goals and amount of chances missed alone but also, quite importantly, his anticipation, movement and positioning in order to get chances. For all the attacking we did in either leg against Madrid, Lewandowski got too little chances, and that's on him too. Definitely not on the wingers if Lewandowski's markers kept getting the better of him because he was repeatedly falling to unmark himself.

This is what I loved about Gomez. If peak Gomez had played against Madrid instead of Lewandowski he would have had double or triple the amount of chances and probably scored multiple times. This for a striker who Hoeness said is "not very good", not even the greatest in the world Lewandowski believes he is.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Dumbledore7 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm

Yeah I don't completely buy that. That being said, I'll be the first to admit that I think Gomez does have a better sense of positioning than most strikers in history, and is the top 3 best finishers of his generation.

But that didn't seem to matter to Jupp. Mandzukic was brought to do work that doesn't directly relate to goals. Why? Because Robben and Ribery does enough to enable everyone to score and only give Mandzukic chances on a silver plate when it really matters. Lewandowski on the flipside is surprisingly good at distracting defenders like Muller does - have to say though this was highlighted in the book on Pep's time at Bayern, not my own observation. Basically I'm just saying that there are other qualities that matter more.

Doesn't matter how a striker positions himself if the ball can't get there. Sure, you will say that the striker should then compensate even more by... being even better at positioning. Except there's hardly been any case where a striker can consistently carry a team through an elite match despite sub-par teammates, ever.

Also I realise we've digressed from the initial point - I still don't see why he shouldn't complain just because he's been bad.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Robert Lewandowski: "I had many sleepless nights after the World Cup. I was thinking about what went wrong.Maybe I'm not a man who shows it, But I have my feelings. It hurts a lot. I have not digested it yet. I had big ambitions but the reality turned out to be completely different. My heart ached."

Lewandowski on whether the rumours about a transfer affected him during the World cup: "No, I didn't think about that. These situations accompanied me during my transfers, from Lech Poznan to BvB or from BvB to Bayern. I learnt how to deal with it"

[Przegląd Sportowy]
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Jorge » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:51 pm

What I find peculiar about Lewandowski is his insistence on "being surrounded" by world class players, specifically at a time when the core of Bayern was made of World Cup Champions and Champions League consistent contenders. I can only ask myself what he would say now that basically all Bayern players got out of the World Cup early. Is this what he wants to talk about with the bosses? They can tell him to become Tolisso's best friend or something.
It is like Lewandowski wants Bayern built around him and he won't stop until he can pick what players he wants in the squad.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Jorge wrote:What I find peculiar about Lewandowski is his insistence on "being surrounded" by world class players, specifically at a time when the core of Bayern was made of World Cup Champions and Champions League consistent contenders. I can only ask myself what he would say now that basically all Bayern players got out of the World Cup early. Is this what he wants to talk about with the bosses? They can tell him to become Tolisso's best friend or something.
It is like Lewandowski wants Bayern built around him and he won't stop until he can pick what players he wants Bayern in the squad.


The problem for him is going to be that no one is going to build around 29 (30 in August) y.o. player. Even Ronaldo & Messi didn't do that thru the years.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:13 am

Why wouldn't / shouldn't building a team "around Lewandowski" (which isn't even what anyone or anything insinuated) be equal to building a team with good wingers, which equals to having a better team in general regardless of who the striker is?

I mean come on, hate him all you want but don't be daft.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby DerKaiser » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:43 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:Why wouldn't / shouldn't building a team "around Lewandowski" (which isn't even what anyone or anything insinuated) be equal to building a team with good wingers, which equals to having a better team in general regardless of who the striker is?

I mean come on, hate him all you want but don't be daft.


those days are over.......even messi´s time ist vorbei!

Lewa is gonna have an emo mental breakdown soon, i feel it coming. too much money too many weird leeches agents
As long as no-one scored, it was always going to be close.’ – Arsene Wenger
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:28 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Why wouldn't / shouldn't building a team "around Lewandowski" (which isn't even what anyone or anything insinuated) be equal to building a team with good wingers, which equals to having a better team in general regardless of who the striker is?

I mean come on, hate him all you want but don't be daft.


First of all i'm not going to build team around player who's agent is saying :

Pini Zahavi:"Robert feels that he needs a change and a new challenge in his career. Those in charge at Bayern are aware of this." [SportBild]

Because he is not a leader.
He is going to be 30 in August, 2-3 good years ahead of him. He is a striker, not a goalkeeper.
He is always crying out loud on :
Losing the top scorer crown -
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First :
Sometimes even playing 20-30 minutes less in a game or just missing a game means everything comes back to normality. Maybe my injury was due to the fact that there was no time to rest. [source]


Then :
Bayern Munich's Robert Lewandowski unhappy with lack of game time - source [source]


He is mad because he lost the scoring crown,"angry at his teammates", but why he is not saying anything for missing out on the CL trophy ?
I mean, i'm not going to write the other reasons because i don't have time, but we wouldn't be having this conversation if Lewy was not putting his whole team on blast in public.

Lewy throw Bayern under the bus, wanted to be gone, and now is stuck here trying to convince himself that he has any sort of power over Bayern after just getting owned. I don’t have to be happy with his actions, so if you think that you can convince me to just be "alright then, who cares?" with it, you’re wasting your time.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:55 pm

For fuck's sake, I already said to not be daft. You missed my point like Lewandowski misses goals.

We need to buy wingers, yes? Why the fuck should it matter whether that's bought "for him", whatever you think that means, or for the good of the team in general? We still need fucking wingers.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:41 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:For ****'s sake, I already said to not be daft. You missed my point like Lewandowski misses goals.


I liked that.

We need to buy wingers, yes? Why the **** should it matter whether that's bought "for him", whatever you think that means, or for the good of the team in general? We still need **** wingers.


Yeah, we need wingers; the team is always on top;

And the stats that i promise to post:

Best conversion rate in league games Europe in 2016/17:
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It's bad that i don't have the stats from 2018, but they should be in the same amplitude (-/+ 1,2 %);

Lewandowski in 2018 - 30 goals in 127 shots = 23.62 % (Bundesliga)
Lewandowski in 2018 - 41 goals in 173 shots = 23.69 % (Bundesliga and CL)

Conversion Rate = Goals scored / Total shots

While we all know that we need new wingers, probably we can ask from our striker to convert better his chances in front of the goal. This is why the conversion rate is more important than goals per game. It's not the same when you score 30 goals from 80 and 30 goals from 120 shots.

He is getting one of the best (if not the best) services in Europe.
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Jorge » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Why wouldn't / shouldn't building a team "around Lewandowski" (...) be equal to building a team with good wingers (...)?

I mean come on, hate him all you want but don't be daft.


Not even a close comparison. When you build a team around wingers, it opens a whole set of tactical areas. When Robben-Ribery were at their prime we did not even built a team around them: we built a team around wing play, wing tactics. That's why Alaba was moved to the wing instead of playing his preferred central mid position, that's why Pep screwed it when he moved Lahm to the center, that's why Bastian was moved from the wing to the center and so many other variables.

Building a team around Lewandowski will not make sense
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Re: Robert Lewandowski

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:10 pm

Conversion rate isn't important, never is. It's a faux stat - it's one of those metrics that makes people feel smart when they bring it up becaue it's calculated (with pitifully simple arithmetics).

I'll get back to you on this. Edit: Meant to say that there's a better statistics, xG which weighs the quality of the chance. I'll get back with the stats because I have to do it myself.

Jorge wrote:Not even a close comparison. When you build a team around wingers, it opens a whole set of tactical areas. When Robben-Ribery were at their prime we did not even built a team around them: we built a team around wing play, wing tactics. That's why Alaba was moved to the wing instead of playing his preferred central mid position, that's why Pep screwed it when he moved Lahm to the center, that's why Bastian was moved from the wing to the center and so many other variables.

Building a team around Lewandowski will not make sense

Nitpicking. I don't know how the concept of building the team around him was brought up - certainly not me because I was just picking up on the discussion and I know that's not what Lewandowski said. So why don't you just rewind your deduction that Lewandowski asking for "world class" players in the team somehow means building a team around him and forget what I said.

He almost certainly didn't complain in his first years, or indeed during Pep's tenure when our failures were mostly tactical and we had Robben and Ribery still at the end of their peak. The complaining started over the last 12 months or so, probably even 6, and it's quite clearly more valid to say that our team had gotten worse fairly recently and we need a refresh in world class players. Most of the World Cup and Champions League winners have either become worse, left the the club or injured - only one to stay decent is Alaba. It just so happened to coincide with Lewandowski's bad run of form. Us needing more world class players is still true.
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