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Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby zozon » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:30 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Likewise, I've never been convinced of Coutinho from Liverpool, Barcelona or Brazil and it will take something special to make me think otherwise. .


Thats because you watched jack shit of total 0 Liverpool games while he was there. He was a beast accoring to 99% Liverpool fans, but you were not convinced. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Even the majority of Barca fans say he was played out of position, but still they dont hate him or think he is finished. More so, they dont think he was a flop to start with.

Dumbledore7 wrote:Also, linking goal.com. Eww.


Its about the statistics table. Are you blind?
Making the same table from Transfermarkt would make it more true? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

123.png


Just stop it. You're reaching new lows after new lows.
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby DRvad14 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:23 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
We needed a Robben and Ribery replacement, we signed a player who's not even a winger and even as a #10 is only half as good as James, and we're happy. Somebody explain?


true we needed wingers but we didnt have right players available to join us , james didnt want to join us . there had to be another option in attack otherwise it would have been lewy ( some arent happy with him either with cl knock out rounds) , two injury prone not wc wingers , mueller ( 6 goals 3 assists in last 3 years in cl ) tolisso who is returning after injury and goretzka . bad squad planning for sure .
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby aterford » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:41 pm

Coutinho is a really interesting case still IMO. In general, it's the same question as I was posing a few weeks ago: 'fit' vs 'talent'.

I agree with the assessment that we needed a winger (as first priority IMO) and also a creative midfielder (albeit a lower priority). But as I have asked before: in a vacuum, is it better to sign a player who is less talented but a better fit or a player who is more talented but a worse fit?

I don't think many would argue that Coutinho is ahead of Perisic on the basis of simple raw talent. But I think we could also argue that Perisic was a more direct fit (we needed a winger; he is a winger), whereas the more-talented Coutinho is a less direct fit - he often tends to fill a weird role that's not exactly winger but not exactly #10 or "creative midfielder" either. And frankly - one would be forgiven for saying that so far Perisic - the "better fit" - has performed better than Coutinho - the "more talented" - thus far. That's not to say Perisic is "better" than Coutinho (lord knows I was not exactly excited about that signing), and of course it's awfully early, but I think it does make things a bit interesting in regard to the fit vs talent question.

(this isn't meant to specifically be about Perisic vs Coutinho, but rather just on principle. It just also happens to be the most pertinent example on hand at the moment)

Of course there is still the "James question," but at this point it's largely "what-could-have-beens" - at the end of the day, the player has to want to make the move. We simply don't buy him unless he wants to stay; there's no way around that. So while it's arguably true that keeping James would've left us with the better creative midfielder....ultimately it seems that was not really an option; he simply didn't want to stay. And yes, without Kovac or whatever, he probably does want to stay and things are different. I'm the first to tell you that. But at the same time you have to play the hand you are dealt. Kovac is the manager currently and he and James were not a fit, that's that. I'd have liked to have kept James too, but it just wasn't really an option. With the understanding that we weren't going to sack Kovac in order to keep James (and you all know I am far from one to be defending Kovac; I think he already should've been sacked by now but that's another story) it's then a matter of adapting and finding your next best course of action.

In short, it's not so much a question of "Should we have kept James rather than get Coutinho" (because that's probably a yes, but it's misleading as "keeping James" wasn't really an option in the end) but rather a question of "With the understanding that our creative midfielder James will leave, is signing Coutinho as a replacement a good move?" That's the big question mark at the moment.

Of course, all in all, I think at the end of the day we probably can all admit Coutinho was not our first-choice by a long shot. And that's nothing against the player, but just to say that he certainly wasn't in our plans until some other plans fell apart. If we managed to sign Sane earlier in the window before he got hurt or even a different top winger, Coutinho probably never is even considered and this whole conversation never happens.

In general, Coutinho is certainly a talented player who *does* raise the overall "talent level" of the team, but it *is* fair to ask if he's a good fit or what role exactly he's meant to fill. I think our board and bosses royally f**ked up this transfer window, but all in all, for a sort of last-ditch-effort signing, you could do worse than Coutinho, I guess. Of course like I said - it's still very early - so perhaps he will really come into form and be a great addition, I wouldn't discount the possibility. Ultimately - barring a small miracle and some financial wizardry - i suspect he will only be a one-season rental...and while being an expensive rental player - even if he's not a great fit, if he improves our team, is a good contributor, and even helps our marketing/profile....we could definitely do a lot worse. So, we'll see.
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:18 pm

Why can't other people do nuanced posts like that haha
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby sch0ll7 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:15 pm

what`s with all the hate...after two games. give the guy at least 10-15 games to adapt to the players and our "tactics".

We needed a player of his quality. James left and we needed at least 1 creative midfielder to operate in attack.
Muller is a striker...he is not a midfielder...so please dont compare those two. Muller`s only job is to find space in attack and try to score or make an assist.
We needed a player that would help with build-up and keep possession while also creating and passing in the final third. Coutinho`s primary job isnt to score, that is why you will rearly see him in the 16-yard box.

Back then when Jupp was our guy...we played with #6 with Martinez/Gustavo and Schweini + Ribery and Robben on the wings...that could also create and hold possession...that is why he could play Muller and not even sweat about him needing to do anything else than finding space and scoring.
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby munchen99 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:19 pm

aterford wrote:Coutinho is a really interesting case still IMO. In general, it's the same question as I was posing a few weeks ago: 'fit' vs 'talent'.

I agree with the assessment that we needed a winger (as first priority IMO) and also a creative midfielder (albeit a lower priority). But as I have asked before: in a vacuum, is it better to sign a player who is less talented but a better fit or a player who is more talented but a worse fit?

I don't think many would argue that Coutinho is ahead of Perisic on the basis of simple raw talent. But I think we could also argue that Perisic was a more direct fit (we needed a winger; he is a winger), whereas the more-talented Coutinho is a less direct fit - he often tends to fill a weird role that's not exactly winger but not exactly #10 or "creative midfielder" either. And frankly - one would be forgiven for saying that so far Perisic - the "better fit" - has performed better than Coutinho - the "more talented" - thus far. That's not to say Perisic is "better" than Coutinho (lord knows I was not exactly excited about that signing), and of course it's awfully early, but I think it does make things a bit interesting in regard to the fit vs talent question.

(this isn't meant to specifically be about Perisic vs Coutinho, but rather just on principle. It just also happens to be the most pertinent example on hand at the moment)

Of course there is still the "James question," but at this point it's largely "what-could-have-beens" - at the end of the day, the player has to want to make the move. We simply don't buy him unless he wants to stay; there's no way around that. So while it's arguably true that keeping James would've left us with the better creative midfielder....ultimately it seems that was not really an option; he simply didn't want to stay. And yes, without Kovac or whatever, he probably does want to stay and things are different. I'm the first to tell you that. But at the same time you have to play the hand you are dealt. Kovac is the manager currently and he and James were not a fit, that's that. I'd have liked to have kept James too, but it just wasn't really an option. With the understanding that we weren't going to sack Kovac in order to keep James (and you all know I am far from one to be defending Kovac; I think he already should've been sacked by now but that's another story) it's then a matter of adapting and finding your next best course of action.

In short, it's not so much a question of "Should we have kept James rather than get Coutinho" (because that's probably a yes, but it's misleading as "keeping James" wasn't really an option in the end) but rather a question of "With the understanding that our creative midfielder James will leave, is signing Coutinho as a replacement a good move?" That's the big question mark at the moment.

Of course, all in all, I think at the end of the day we probably can all admit Coutinho was not our first-choice by a long shot. And that's nothing against the player, but just to say that he certainly wasn't in our plans until some other plans fell apart. If we managed to sign Sane earlier in the window before he got hurt or even a different top winger, Coutinho probably never is even considered and this whole conversation never happens.

In general, Coutinho is certainly a talented player who *does* raise the overall "talent level" of the team, but it *is* fair to ask if he's a good fit or what role exactly he's meant to fill. I think our board and bosses royally f**ked up this transfer window, but all in all, for a sort of last-ditch-effort signing, you could do worse than Coutinho, I guess. Of course like I said - it's still very early - so perhaps he will really come into form and be a great addition, I wouldn't discount the possibility. Ultimately - barring a small miracle and some financial wizardry - i suspect he will only be a one-season rental...and while being an expensive rental player - even if he's not a great fit, if he improves our team, is a good contributor, and even helps our marketing/profile....we could definitely do a lot worse. So, we'll see.


Did we need a creative attacking Midfielder?
Yes.

Did we need James as that attacking Midfielder?
No.

Is Perisic an effective and interesting winger who adds much needed depth to the team?
Yes.

Is Coutinho an interesting option, and possibly a gamechanger in that attacking Midfield position?
Yes - and he provides us with a different style. Merely changing from Muller to Coutinho and vice versa during games seems to be making a difference and confusing opposing teams.

Does James still suck?
Yes.
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:41 pm

zozon wrote:Even Messi or Ronaldo wouldnt click at Bayern in 184 minutes.

You are acting like this is ping-pong forum or a darts forum where its all based on an individual terms, get a grip and take your daily chill piils. It seems like you havent played football a single minute within a team to know how it works on a base level, doesnt matter if this is Ronaldo we are talking about or your level of football.
It takes TIME to get to know your teammates, getting to know their runs, timings, tempo and the way they think in general, of the way how, where and when they would go and open up for a pass or something like that IN AN ACTUAL GAME versus another team, not in training.

184 minutes is certainly NOT enough. But apparently not in your sick world where you label Coutinho 50% not as good as frigging James,

Just look up Ronaldo's stats in his Juve start and STOP SPREADING BULLSHIT in this thread. Just shut up and stop embarassing yourself even further. Even Ronaldo acknowledges that sometime it takes time to find your stride, but no - Dumledore7 knows better.

When Ronaldo did not immediately hit the ground running in Serie A it wasn't long before the scrutiny intensified over the attacker's form.

It took him four games - or 320 minutes - to finally find the back of the net as he struck twice in a 2-1 win over after drawing blanks against , and Parma.

"I really wanted to score these first goals and I'm happy to have found the net," a relieved Ronaldo told after opening his account.

"This is football. The important thing is that the team wins. Obviously, I was a little tense with all the talk of Real Madrid and not scoring, but I thank my team-mates for supporting me throughout.

"I knew that I was working well and it was only a matter of time. I am adapting well to Italian football."


https://www.goal.com/g00/en-kw/news/cri ... &i10c.dv=8

Its NOT about Player A being better than Player B, its about Player A getting his grip in a new environment, with new teammates, coach and facilities. Javi Martinez looked like a lost dude in his first 3-4 games at Bayern, kicking high passes over to opposing goalkeepers and so much misplaced passes. I still remember that vividly just because of the hype about the transfer. And he ended up being a vital point in the Bayern treble season.

Your point is invalid, your reasoning is completely unlogical and sick. Just stop.
Do not construct this comment as pro or against Coutinho, but Xabi Alonso clicked from the moment he stepped into the pitch.

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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
zozon wrote:Even Messi or Ronaldo wouldnt click at Bayern in 184 minutes.

You are acting like this is ping-pong forum or a darts forum where its all based on an individual terms, get a grip and take your daily chill piils. It seems like you havent played football a single minute within a team to know how it works on a base level, doesnt matter if this is Ronaldo we are talking about or your level of football.
It takes TIME to get to know your teammates, getting to know their runs, timings, tempo and the way they think in general, of the way how, where and when they would go and open up for a pass or something like that IN AN ACTUAL GAME versus another team, not in training.

184 minutes is certainly NOT enough. But apparently not in your sick world where you label Coutinho 50% not as good as frigging James,

Just look up Ronaldo's stats in his Juve start and STOP SPREADING BULLSHIT in this thread. Just shut up and stop embarassing yourself even further. Even Ronaldo acknowledges that sometime it takes time to find your stride, but no - Dumledore7 knows better.

When Ronaldo did not immediately hit the ground running in Serie A it wasn't long before the scrutiny intensified over the attacker's form.

It took him four games - or 320 minutes - to finally find the back of the net as he struck twice in a 2-1 win over after drawing blanks against , and Parma.

"I really wanted to score these first goals and I'm happy to have found the net," a relieved Ronaldo told after opening his account.

"This is football. The important thing is that the team wins. Obviously, I was a little tense with all the talk of Real Madrid and not scoring, but I thank my team-mates for supporting me throughout.

"I knew that I was working well and it was only a matter of time. I am adapting well to Italian football."


https://www.goal.com/g00/en-kw/news/cri ... &i10c.dv=8

Its NOT about Player A being better than Player B, its about Player A getting his grip in a new environment, with new teammates, coach and facilities. Javi Martinez looked like a lost dude in his first 3-4 games at Bayern, kicking high passes over to opposing goalkeepers and so much misplaced passes. I still remember that vividly just because of the hype about the transfer. And he ended up being a vital point in the Bayern treble season.

Your point is invalid, your reasoning is completely unlogical and sick. Just stop.
Do not construct this comment as pro or against Coutinho, but Xabi Alonso clicked from the moment he stepped into the pitch.

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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:37 pm

Lewa has nothing but colorful things to say about him so im inclined to believe him instead of arm chair managers.....
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby #12 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:01 pm

The forum flatliner, who already went rampant when someone dared to criticize the mighty Costa , once again has little to say but ad hominem... Perisic has not really more than those 184 minutes and already racked up two assists and a goal... Fucking Perisic, who spends more time in Kovac’s pants than zozon in Courinhos, still managed to do better, and we all know he’s mediocre...
Most likely, just as with Costa, we will never hear from him again about the topic once he is proven wrong...

The "time" argument is shit, and it’s the same Müller followers used and were laughed at for... How times change...

I haven’t seen anything special from Coutinho, even if we completely ignore goals, assists, crosses and key passes... It’s nothing Havertz can’t already do better...
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby aaaaaa » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:46 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Wanted to continue the discussion from last night's match thread.

This is really a topic for last month so I'm definitely late in chipping in my two cents (didn't need to though because #12 has done more than enough :mrgreen:). I did exclaim that Coutinho's not world class to some great reactions, but clearly not enough.

We needed a Robben and Ribery replacement, we signed a player who's not even a winger and even as a #10 is only half as good as James, and we're happy. Somebody explain?

this is just not true, not even close

also we do need to become more creative, all that possesion in the final third most of the time for nothing
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby YlonenXabi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 pm

I just learnt that if you don't give an assist or score you had a bad game :shock:


Let me ask you something. Do you think this guy from below had a succesfull career as a creative midfielder?

17/18 - 30 games, 1 goal, 2 assists

16/17 - 23 games, 0 goals, 3 assists

15/16 - 28 games, 1 goal, 2 assists

14/15 - 24 games, 0 goals, 1 assist




Image

You can add 2 Euro Cups and 1 World Cup to that picture :wink:





Coutinho plays way deeper than Müller and his duties are making the game flow, linking up the midfield with the attack... just like a certain Iniesta.

Have you ever seen Müller drop back into CM positions and create anything productive? No, because he is a different type of player. He's got different assets and that's why you can't compare their numbers.


We can argue who is a better fit for the team (and Coutinho wins by a big margin IMO) but comparing their numbers is pointless.
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby #12 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:23 pm

Coutinho fits in as well as a pine cone up to now...

Leave Müller out of the equation and face simple facts: he ain’t special... Again, if he were, he'd play someplace else, Barcelona most likely...
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby YlonenXabi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:40 pm

You know that the same thing could be said of Leroy Sane, right?

Or Robben back in the days
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Re: Philippe Coutinho [Philippe Coutinho Correia]

Postby sherpthederp » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:40 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Do not construct this comment as pro or against Coutinho, but Xabi Alonso clicked from the moment he stepped into the pitch.

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I think this is a bit of a different case as Xabis role is one that literally forms how the team plays. He didn’t “slot in” per say to an existing tempo, he created it. Plus for the most part off the ball movement really starts to play an important role in the final third, which is not where Xabi created most of his impact.

Knowing where your fullbacks and central midfielder are going to be is probably a bit easier that reading when your wingers or striker is going to roll off the back and make a diagonal run in behind or who is going to overlap when. The intricacies or playing as an attacking midfielder have got to take more time to settle into.

Oh and doesn’t get me wrong, I’m not calling Xabis role easier by any means, just that he had the freedom to redefine it and put his stamp on the teams tempo.
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