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Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby #12 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:01 pm

No just a missing part to aterford‘s response
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby Jorge » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:38 pm

aterford wrote:And it shows what kind of a person the witch doctor is


It looks like there are 2nd opinions out there with a lot of weight:

Usain Bolt credits Bayern doctor for recovery leading to 2016 Olympic gold [source]


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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:01 pm

Yeah, again, that doesn't really prove anything.
It seems you (and others) are operating under under a couple faulty assumptions.
First, this assumes that HWMW's treatments actually DID do what they were reported to do (and that the healing they were claimed to have provided wouldn't have happened in the first place). Whereas for all we know said treatments were nothing more than placebo and the healing occurred naturally.
Second, it assumes that HWMW did something no other doctor could've done. There's no control for this "experiment". We can't say "This is all due to HWMW" without having a "Non-HWMW" test on the other side to determine if these affects would've happened or not. Again, for all we know, any (tested and proven) treatment may have very well provided the same results. But, with respect to Usain Bolt, many, MANY athletes and celebrities have been fooled by nonsense treatments in the past, it's nothing new.

Tom Brady, one of the greatest athletes of all time, would tell you that drinking fancy water can reduce the risk of concussion. Steve Finley of the Angels believed wearing a pouch of crystals around his neck improved his batting average. Russell Wilson's "nano bubble recovery water" has been claimed to accelerate healing of various injuries. Asamoah Gyan, Zabaleta, Kompany, RVP, Diego Costa, etc all felt that horse placenta treatments would help heal muscle tears.
Usain Bolt thinks HWMW's calf blood injections helped him win a Gold medal. Good for him. He is free to think that if he wants. But HWMW's treatment's are the same as all the rest: untested and unproven beyond anecdotal support.

Saying "well _____ believes it helped him, so" is nothing more than a fallacious argument from authority -- and a faulty one at that, as Bolt et al are NOT medical authorities and far from being an expert in the field their claims are being used to provide 'evidence' for.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby #12 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:12 pm

Well, we also don’t know the opposite ;)

Fact remains that he’s nit exactly a doctor to the peasants ;)
He’s not JUST working with calf blood...

And besides, placebos ARE a medical fact aren’t they?
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Jorge wrote:
aterford wrote:And it shows what kind of a person the witch doctor is


It looks like there are 2nd opinions out there with a lot of weight:

Usain Bolt credits Bayern doctor for recovery leading to 2016 Olympic gold [source]


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Nobody said he's a bad doctor. The accusations are that his processes may not be as fast as modern football requires.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:47 pm

#12 wrote:Well, we also don’t know the opposite ;)

Fact remains that he’s nit exactly a doctor to the peasants ;)
He’s not JUST working with calf blood...

And besides, placebos ARE a medical fact aren’t they?


Yes, exactly.
We don't know either way, so any claim that HWMW is a miracle worker is just speculation based on anecdotal evidence. There's no surety to that.
Again, "not exactly a doctor to the peasants" is also just a modified argument from authority. Working for famous people does not make you a better doctor (or a more reputable one) than working with "peasants". There are plenty of extremely talented doctors who do just that - work with "peasants" - because the celebrity doctors find it's below them, or something.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "placebos are a medical fact". If you're asking if the "placebo effect" is proven, then yes, sure, although that would seem to speak more against HWMW than for - in that his 'cures' are psychological rather than physiological as he claims.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby JANCKER » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:31 am

The grass was too long...
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby Jorge » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:15 am

MUTU wrote:Nobody said he's a bad doctor.


Some are.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Jorge wrote:
MUTU wrote:Nobody said he's a bad doctor.


Some are.


I'm not saying he's bad doctor (I'm assuming you're referring to me), but I don't think there's any evidence that he's quite the miracle worker he's propped up to be.

The fact that he refuses to allow his treatments to be peer-reviewed tells me two things.

1. He knows that a peer review will find his treatments to be junk science and no more effective than "traditional" tested and proven methods. If this is the case, he loses his claim to fame and is just a 'normal' doctor (does anybody really think HWMW would be as famous as he is if not for his "nontraditional" methods? I doubt that very much.) Without his nontraditional methods he's just another doctor in a sea of them. Actovegin and other treatments are what makes him stand out. Controlling the evidence/story and maintaining the mystique surrounding his treatment allows people to stay interested in them. When they're peer-reviewed and found to be no better than placebo, the mystique and allure are gone.

Or, if it's not that,

2. He knows his techniques *are* effective but doesn't want them found out so that others can capitalize on them. If everybody knows how to administer the same treatments as him, again, he's just another doctor. But a good doctor should desire good health and healing for all people, not just his clientele. If this is the case, it would seem that he values fame and fortune over helping others. If you truly have a cure that can help many people and you don't share it with the world, I cannot support you in good conscience.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby JANCKER » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:27 pm

Or he just doesn't like to prove anything to anyone... not many had problems with him except the 'brains' of Klinsy and Peppone.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:42 pm

JANCKER wrote:Or he just doesn't like to prove anything to anyone... not many had problems with him except the 'brains' of Klinsy and Peppone.


Yeah, that doesn't really sufficiently answer the "why".
If his treatments are so good, why not allow them to be tested? Either he knows they're bunk, or he's greedy and doesn't want to lose his claims of exclusivity. Simple as.
I know you have a hard time focusing on anything not related to Guardiola, but there are plenty who have had problems with HWMW, namely much of the medical community, but what do they know.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby JANCKER » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:52 pm

aterford wrote:I know you have a hard time focusing on anything not related to Guardiola, but there are plenty who have had problems with HWMW, namely much of the medical community, but what do they know.


That's probably why he's also the NT's doctor as of many others from other sides of the world... then comes a 'brain' that wants to question his methods and work, his achievements are there to see, hundreds of satisfied patients.
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:57 pm

JANCKER wrote:
aterford wrote:I know you have a hard time focusing on anything not related to Guardiola, but there are plenty who have had problems with HWMW, namely much of the medical community, but what do they know.


That's probably why he's also the NT's doctor as of many others from other sides of the world... then comes a 'brain' that wants to question his methods and work, his achievements are there to see, hundreds of satisfied patients.


Yeah, again, that's avoiding the issue here entirely. Can't really expect much of a discussion if you're not willing to engage honestly. Enjoy your strange obsession with Guardiola!
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby JANCKER » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:07 pm

It's possible that he wants his son to be the only heir of his methods... the only one willing to learn from him without other intentions. Nothing wrong there...
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Re: Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:40 pm

JANCKER wrote:It's possible that he wants his son to be the only heir of his methods... the only one willing to learn from him without other intentions. Nothing wrong there...


right. In which case he (or his son) are still just greedy and don't have the best interests of the people at heart.
If you don't see something wrong with a doctor withholding his miracle cure from the world because "maybe he just wants his son to be the only heir" then we're just not gonna see eye to eye. If you have a cure that's as amazing as he and others claim, you'd have to be remarkably greedy or just plain cruel to keep it to yourself. As for me? I would have no business with any such doctor that engaged in such practices. I would hope my doctor would be more concerned with helping others than making money or a name for himself and/or his son. I would hope that my doctor would want everyone to be healed, everyone to be healthy. Not allowing others in on your secret makes you not much more than an infomercial salesman dressed in a lab coat.
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