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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:41 pm

#12 wrote:but general suspicion against "foreigners" is BS...

There is no "general suspicion against foreigners". No one has a problem with Dutch, British, French, Italian, American, Brazilian, Japanese etc. etc. foreigners. There's a "general suspicion" against people, men in particular, coming from countries where an archaic version of the muslim religion is practiced. The version that considers women as worth less than a horse, the version that doesn't tolerate either other religious beliefs or atheism, the version that doesn't respect our constitution or our courts, the version that advocates executing women for cheating on their husbands - even if said "cheating" is a result of rape - the version that wants gay people to be stoned to death. How the political lefties can defend the rights of women, gays and lesbians and be atheist and at the same time preach "tolerance" towards that kind of medieval religious beliefs is beyond me.
Again, ramsej, there has been some leftist zeitgeist recently, I agree... And I also partly agree we need AfD to make up for that... But why should switching all the way to the other extreme make it any better?

There's nothing "leftist" - in the original sense - about that zeitgeist. It's all about a self-apointed "intellectual elite" - so-called "champagne socialists" - who have totally lost connection to the very people lefties are traditionally supposed to represent, the working class population with no university degree. While trying to protect all kinds of minorities they totally lost sight of that very significant minority (or it may even be the majority), which used to be the social-democratic or left-wing core electorate.
Reason... The magic word is reason...

Tell that to the so-called "left".
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Re: German members...

Postby #12 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:52 am

So? Still a general suspicion... The way I understand it, acceptance of our value set is still mandatory here, isn't it?
Even if they have an archaic imagination of women, rape is still illegal in those countries, isn't it? You act like there's anarchy over there...

We shouldn't and we mustn't cater to a minority here... They need to live by our "rules"... And there are still many things that need (to) change... And no one is defending these or people who don't respect the aforementioned value set...
Still, general suspicion is Bullshit, cause we had tons of these even before 2014 and 15, and most of them are totally unblemished...
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Re: German members...

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:04 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:I consider people 5 years younger than me to be of a different generation. :lol: Probably because technology made their way of life much different than mine at that age.


and twelve years older ?


You won't like my answer :P

I've had teachers between 10 and 12 years older so it's hard to think of them as part of the same generation. But perhaps you're right... I stayed friends with a couple of them, we have each other on Facebook and follow pretty much like the same things.
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Re: German members...

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:15 pm

RedQueen wrote:There's nothing "leftist" - in the original sense - about that zeitgeist. It's all about a self-apointed "intellectual elite" - so-called "champagne socialists" - who have totally lost connection to the very people lefties are traditionally supposed to represent, the working class population with no university degree. While trying to protect all kinds of minorities they totally lost sight of that very significant minority (or it may even be the majority), which used to be the social-democratic or left-wing core electorate. ".


This is very true. I consider myself left leaning, and I admit I'm more concerned about other minorities than working class people (not that I don't care about them, I care about all people, but I think they have less pressing issues). It's undeniable that all over the world the working class is turning to the right, often extreme right.

I think it's the result of historical evolution. In Europe especially, the left has "won". I mean this comparatively. Compared to the US, all of Europe (including those run by conservatives) are socialist. We don't consider things like health and education to be part of socialist politics, we think they're universal rights. And in that regard we have made a lot of progress and continue to make (education fees in the US are ever rising, in Europe, more and more free universities are showing up).

And here, speaking for myself, comes one of my political right ideas. People have been given opportunities, and it's up to the individual to take them and gain social mobility. I'll use myself as an example. One side of my family is working class, the other side educated to some degree but not exactly what I would call intellectual. I'm easily the most educated (formally) member of my family, but I don't feel that has been a disadvantage in my life.

Other minorities, on the other hand, including women in those parts of the world you referred to, have disadvantages imposed on them by others and they can't escape that without changes.
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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:17 pm

#12 wrote:So? Still a general suspicion... The way I understand it, acceptance of our value set is still mandatory here, isn't it?
Even if they have an archaic imagination of women, rape is still illegal in those countries, isn't it? You act like there's anarchy over there...

Really? Tell that to girls who are married against their will at the age of 12. Apart from that, it doesn't matter whether rape is illegal if everyone knows there will be no persecution because "it's the woman's fault if she is raped", and they can get away with it.
We shouldn't and we mustn't cater to a minority here... They need to live by our "rules"... And there are still many things that need (to) change... And no one is defending these or people who don't respect the aforementioned value set...

Except they don't know what it means to live by our rules, and it's arguably not that easy for them to live by our rules. They have been socialized in an environment with an entirely different set of rules, and you don't get rid of decades long socialization over night and by decree. It's basic sociologist knowledge, really, something I learned at University in the two or three sociology lectures I had to attend. How parties full of teachers, educators, and social pedagogues can simply ignore and deny that I fail to understand. Of course you can socialize them to adhere to a different set of rules, but it doesn't work over night and it doesn't work for hundreds of thousands of mostly young men all at the same time, with zero preparation.
Still, general suspicion is Bullshit, cause we had tons of these even before 2014 and 15, and most of them are totally unblemished...

We didn't have "tons of these" before 2014 and 2015. Most muslims before 2014 and 2015 came from Turkey, and they can't be compared to those coming from Afghanistan or Syria or Libya. There is no "general suspicion" against muslims either. No one has a problem with secular muslims like Muhterem Aras (who I went to university with) or Cem Özdemir. No one (except for the lefties) has a problem with muslims like Hamed Abdel-Samad either. We have a problem with those who refuse to accept our constitution and courts, who set up backyard courts that pass verdicts according to the Sharia, who refuse to take orders from female police officers simply because they are women etc. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who sets up a backyard court and tries to establish some sort of parallel system of justice should get one warning, and if it doesn't stop, they should have to leave the country immediately.
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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:30 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:This is very true. I consider myself left leaning, and I admit I'm more concerned about other minorities than working class people (not that I don't care about them, I care about all people, but I think they have less pressing issues). It's undeniable that all over the world the working class is turning to the right, often extreme right.

I think it's the result of historical evolution. In Europe especially, the left has "won". I mean this comparatively. Compared to the US, all of Europe (including those run by conservatives) are socialist. We don't consider things like health and education to be part of socialist politics, we think they're universal rights. And in that regard we have made a lot of progress and continue to make (education fees in the US are ever rising, in Europe, more and more free universities are showing up).

I think the working class people turning to the right is a result of the left not representing them anymore. At least in Germany, these "pseudo lefties" despise the very people they are supposed to represent - the left-behinds in the globalization process, those without a university degree, those who don't belong to the LGBT community. It's very obvious when they sneer at people who voted for Trump and call him "the president of the dumb". Guess what, the working class people don't care about political theories and ideologies and whether their kids are properly introduced to the rights of the LGBT community. They want their own rights to be represented, they want to be respected, and if they find the social democrats and lefties can't be bothered then they turn to someone else. Even if it's someone like Trump who is arguably a political troll - a political troll to them is preferable to a candidate like Clinton who is in bed with Wall Street and one of the worst imaginable figureheads of that self-appointed "intellectual elite".

We do have politicians among the lefties who understand that in Germany. Sahra Wagenknecht of "Die Linke" (and her husband), who's one of the few shining beacons among present German politicians (even if her economics still leave a few things to be desired - but she's getting better with each passing year) knows exactly what is going on and why her party is losing voters to the AfD. And guess what, her own party is accusing her of "right-wing populism".
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Re: German members...

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:24 pm

I don't disagree, and attacking a person for their political beliefs or economic background is just as despicable as doing so for race, sexual orientation, and so on.

But who is taking rights away from working class people? I'm not into German politics so maybe there's something different there which I'm not aware of. Working class people no longer have someone consistently arguing for them, but in many ways I believe they no longer need to. The proper conditions have been set in place.

It's worth noting I live in a country where you hardly ever see beggars in the street and I doubt there are more than 100 homeless people in the country, so I might be slightly disillusioned, I admit.


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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:43 pm

The work contract situation has been getting worse. There are more and more temporary contracts, part-time contracts, people are working for poorly paying temporary employment agencies, special-order contract relationships with self-employed are used to replace regular employment relationships, people have to take second jobs to make ends met, people over 50 have great difficulties finding a job once they get unemployed and regular unemployment benefits are only paid for one year. After that, they can only get means-tested benefits, which means they have to use up almost their entire savings they've worked for for decades. The middle class is eroding, we have a widening gap between those who have well-paid regular jobs and an increasing number who work in atypical employment relationships. Especially for the latter, old-age poverty will become a big problem in one or two decades. All of this is a problem primarily for those with lower qualification and a large part of the refugees will compete in that segment of the labour market and make the situation worse. Same thing with affordable housing - the influx of refugees means even more demand for affordable housing and will drive up the rents.
Last edited by RedQueen on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German members...

Postby ramsej84 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:04 pm

The best points in this thread.
Well done Redqueen

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Re: German members...

Postby ottackon » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:08 pm

The question is not whether one is leftist or rightist, the important thing is to make the distinction between the workers' Left that is the opposite of the caviar or champagne Left, and the moral Right (family, traditions, etc.) that has completely different concerns versus the financial Right (bankers, big corporations, liberal professions, etc.).
In fact, the dominant system in the West is the sacred union of the caviar Left and the financial Right. Humanitarian wars and mass immigration are some of the exemples of this union, financial Right needing natural ressources, migrants for social dumping or whatever, and the caviar Left providing with the necessary humanitarian alibi.
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Re: German members...

Postby tflags » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:33 pm

RedQueen wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:This is very true. I consider myself left leaning, and I admit I'm more concerned about other minorities than working class people (not that I don't care about them, I care about all people, but I think they have less pressing issues). It's undeniable that all over the world the working class is turning to the right, often extreme right.

I think it's the result of historical evolution. In Europe especially, the left has "won". I mean this comparatively. Compared to the US, all of Europe (including those run by conservatives) are socialist. We don't consider things like health and education to be part of socialist politics, we think they're universal rights. And in that regard we have made a lot of progress and continue to make (education fees in the US are ever rising, in Europe, more and more free universities are showing up).

I think the working class people turning to the right is a result of the left not representing them anymore. At least in Germany, these "pseudo lefties" despise the very people they are supposed to represent - the left-behinds in the globalization process, those without a university degree, those who don't belong to the LGBT community. It's very obvious when they sneer at people who voted for Trump and call him "the president of the dumb". Guess what, the working class people don't care about political theories and ideologies and whether their kids are properly introduced to the rights of the LGBT community. They want their own rights to be represented, they want to be respected, and if they find the social democrats and lefties can't be bothered then they turn to someone else. Even if it's someone like Trump who is arguably a political troll - a political troll to them is preferable to a candidate like Clinton who is in bed with Wall Street and one of the worst imaginable figureheads of that self-appointed "intellectual elite".

We do have politicians among the lefties who understand that in Germany. Sahra Wagenknecht of "Die Linke" (and her husband), who's one of the few shining beacons among present German politicians (even if her economics still leave a few things to be desired - but she's getting better with each passing year) knows exactly what is going on and why her party is losing voters to the AfD. And guess what, her own party is accusing her of "right-wing populism".


Unemployment is half of the levels of when this liberal government took office. Half. In economic terms it is at full employment. Population movement and all that.

And yet the liberals are in bed with Wall Street. What rebel users such as the poster and he who thanks her fail to see the latest economic report from that very same source, Wall Street, puts the Trump organization at 350 million in direct debt with. . . Wall Street. If you include companies owned up to 30%, debt is 1.5 billion.

But sure, this is probably fake news, y'now.
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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:45 pm

tflags wrote:Unemployment is half of the levels of when this liberal government took office. Half. In economic terms it is at full employment. Population movement and all that.

And yet the liberals are in bed with Wall Street. What rebel users such as the poster and he who thanks her fail to see the latest economic report from that very same source, Wall Street, puts the Trump organization at 350 million in direct debt with. . . Wall Street. If you include companies owned up to 30%, debt is 1.5 billion.

But sure, this is probably fake news, y'now.


Leaked Speech Excerpts Show a Hillary Clinton at Ease With Wall Street | NYT [source]


About the employment situation: It's not "fake news", it's called "unemployment statistics". Its pitfalls and problems are well known.
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Re: German members...

Postby tflags » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:54 pm

No, actually, it is called a miracle. As in it is a miracle that we are bitching about a government at full employment and all that.

But sure, a Russian hacked speech is more important that owing them one third of your net worth. :lol:
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Re: German members...

Postby RedQueen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:04 pm

tflags wrote:No, actually, it is called a miracle. As in it is a miracle that we are bitching about a government at full employment and all that.

But sure, a Russian hacked speech is more important that owing them one third of your net worth. :lol:

Where did I say that? I said nothing of that sort. On the contrary, I said Trump is arguably a political troll.

There's a reason she didn't want those speeches to be released. Heck, she even says it herself:
Mrs. Clinton acknowledged that her family’s rising wealth had made her “kind of far removed” from the struggles of the middle class.

A miracle... tell that to the workers in the rust belt. But judging from your condescending tone, you probably think you know their situation better than those workers themselves, who are simply too dumb to cast the "correct vote". God forbid we question why the democrats failed to nominate a candidate who actually had a chance of winning.
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Re: German members...

Postby ottackon » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:15 pm

Here are some of the tricks used by the Obama administration to achieve their full employement mirage :

- If anyone is unemployed and has subsequently given up on finding a job over the past four weeks -- the Department of Labor doesn't count him as unemployed.
- If one performs a minimum of one hour of work in a week and is paid at least $20, he's not officially counted as unemployed.
- If an american is working 10 hours part time because it is as all he can find -- in other words, he's severely underemployed -- the government doesn't count him as unemployed.

And beyond the numbers, there were more than 43 million americans on food stamps in 2016, and logically, if everything was so great in the US, why didn't americans vote for Clinton ?
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