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Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God(s)?

Yes, I believe in the God of Abraham.
12
43%
Yes, I believe in a God or Gods other than the God of Abraham.
2
7%
Yes, but I am not a practising believer.
1
4%
I believe there is an unknown force or existence which is not a God (e.g. alternate realities).
1
4%
I don't know.
1
4%
No, but I believe there is an afterlife.
0
No votes
No, but I believe in reincarnation.
0
No votes
No, I am an atheist.
8
29%
No, I am an agnostic.
3
11%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 28

Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:38 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Re your last paragraph.
We don't believe that God does that.
It is nature that does it.


But God created nature, in that view? So does nature also have free will and develops independently without God being able to stop it? God is supposed to be omnipotent though, so why doesn’t he do so?

I haven’t really heard a convincing answer to this philosophical/theological problem Christianity faces. It is why I said believing God created evil is a way to solve it but then why would you be OK with God doing that?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:01 pm

this is if one believes in the actual Adam and Eve...
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby MUTU » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:39 pm

If we didn't have free will we'd be basically actors following a script. Whichever god you believe in, or even if you are an atheist, surely you should celebrate the fact we have free will and, by extension, that evil exists.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 pm

I promise I'll explain my understanding of the Islamic perspective at great length, but probably won't do it very soon.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:02 pm

MUTU wrote:If we didn't have free will we'd be basically actors following a script. Whichever god you believe in, or even if you are an atheist, surely you should celebrate the fact we have free will and, by extension, that evil exists.


True. However, it’s not a satisfactory answer to why God would not intervene considering he is all-good and, according to Christian belief, used to intervene all the time anyway.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:03 pm

ramsej84 wrote:this is if one believes in the actual Adam and Eve...


I don’t follow what you’re trying to say here.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:09 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:If we didn't have free will we'd be basically actors following a script. Whichever god you believe in, or even if you are an atheist, surely you should celebrate the fact we have free will and, by extension, that evil exists.


True. However, it’s not a satisfactory answer to why God would not intervene considering he is all-good and, according to Christian belief, used to intervene all the time anyway.

By the way, no one said God is ‘all-good’ (maybe in Christianity, but I’m not sure). You will probably think this leads to a philosophical debate, which it does, hence why I need some time to prepare to write something properly and lay out all the arguments.
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Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:07 pm

The Bible does, in several verses, and as I was replying to ramsej there I suppose it is a fair assumption of his beliefs.

Edit- to MUTU actually, but the original discussion that brought it up was with ramsej.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:37 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:If we didn't have free will we'd be basically actors following a script. Whichever god you believe in, or even if you are an atheist, surely you should celebrate the fact we have free will and, by extension, that evil exists.


True. However, it’s not a satisfactory answer to why God would not intervene considering he is all-good and, according to Christian belief, used to intervene all the time anyway.
@FCBayernMunchen you are "quoting" the Old,Testament. Which imo gives us a different view of God. It is more of a Hebrew thing... than it evolves ... that is why I see Judaism as an expired Rel as they should have moved on ...
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:41 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:this is if one believes in the actual Adam and Eve...


I don’t follow what you’re trying to say here.
That it is laughable to think that God creates those sorts of things...
God created all and then it all evolved gradually
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:42 pm

Well, the Old Testament is also part of the Bible, but even if it weren't, there's plenty of intervention in the New Testament too, not least God becoming a human being.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:this is if one believes in the actual Adam and Eve...


I don’t follow what you’re trying to say here.
That it is laughable to think that God creates those sorts of things...
God created all and then it all evolved gradually

Hence my question whether nature has free will, then. Dumbledore was referring to natural disasters, diseases, and so on. So did God create the world which then, independently, decided to start shifting plates and causing earthquakes and tsunamis?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Well, the Old Testament is also part of the Bible, but even if it weren't, there's plenty of intervention in the New Testament too, not least God becoming a human being.
But we believe He did so to save humanity from sin.
I kind of He had to do that to win against the devil.
Especially by his Resurrection
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:47 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:[quote="ramsej84"]this is if one believes in the actual Adam and Eve...


I don’t follow what you’re trying to say here.
That it is laughable to think that God creates those sorts of things...
God created all and then it all evolved gradually

Hence my question whether nature has free will, then. Dumbledore was referring to natural disasters, diseases, and so on. So did God create the world which then, independently, decided to start shifting plates and causing earthquakes and tsunamis?[/quote]Of course... in medieval times ppl used to think that God does that.
I don't know let me put it like that...
Cause I am getting confused as when we pray we do so to Ask God to "intervene"
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:04 am

To help explain what I am trying to get at. I hadn't really thought about this, these are just thoughts that I had from the last few posts here.

The way I see it there are these possibilities. I am not referring to evil things like war and so on here (as that was part of my original question on the tweet but it is not relevant to the discussion you raised here), just to natural stuff (let's take earthquakes as an example for simplicity):
1) The world and the rest of the universe, including earthquakes, were not created by a God. Over here I am using the common meaning of God as the God of the Christianity/Islam/Judaism, not a generic term. I believe that even if one is an atheist you have to concede that that once you strip every other layer you will always come to something that is infinite and beyond time and space, whether you call it God, a pre-big bang universe, or whatever else.
2) The universe, including earthquakes, was created by a God, who is not just good. This is why I said that believing God also created evil solves this dilemma. But: Catholicism does not believe in such a God. Also, if true, why? Just for sport?
3) God - the good one - created everything, including a nature that includes bad stuff, earthquakes and all. Why, though, if he is only good?
4) The universe was created by more than one God-like figure, some of which are evil (Manichaeism for example believes in two gods, the good and evil).
5) God created just the good stuff, and then the bad stuff, like earthquakes, developed independently. This would offer the same explanation behind human evil, like war. BUT, that also means we have to apply the same reason. So does nature have a free will? If the answer is yes, this poses questions for Christianity like, does nature/the planet have a soul/consciousness? That would take us closer to the old tribal religions than what the Bible teaches. On the other hand, if the answer is no (nature does not have free will), then how exactly did nature develop evil things? The view since Aristotle is that things can only change into things they already had the potential for. So did God give nature the potential for evil? If not, something that is just good should, theoretically, only be able to change into something good. On the other hand if refute this potentiality argument it opens up a whole other dilemma for Catholic beliefs, not a theological one but an ethical one: it is exactly the argument that underpins the view that an unborn foetus should be treated as a human life, because it is what it will become through its potentiality.
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