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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 11:50 am

ramsej84 wrote:but if they are not careful (no one usually is...) touch their mouth (saliva) and touch any surface ,,, there will be problems if another person touches the same surface and then by mistake touches his eyes, mouth or nose.
That’s why they need to be careful. We should have learned by now. If not, masks.

I think with the increasing temperatures surfaces are less of a problem. Studies have shown direct sunlight can kill it on a surface. It’s the person-to-person transmission that’s the bigger worry.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 11:52 am

MUTU wrote:I know the nephew of the superintendent for health. He thinks she is not relishing the power; on the contrary it is the complete opposite and she hates the limelight. He also didn't know anything about her being a Knight.
Could be, she does seem like that kind of person. I hope I did not come across as tarnishing her reputation as it was far from my intention. Just voicing a possibility.

You all know how I feel about our government haha but I am totally in favour of them taking back more control as it should be, rather than have health authorities run the country.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Thu May 07, 2020 11:58 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Are they? There are two sides to it as far as I can understand. If they are totally lax they can spread it easily because they’ll be going around thinking they’re healthy. But, as long as they are still conscious and careful, they are unlikely to spread it because they’re not sneezing/coughing frequently. At least this is my understanding. The virus doesn’t magically jump from one person to the next.
Well, depends...
There’s aerosol infection, there’s sports (if a guy runs by you in a park, 50 feet male more sense than 5 actually) and of course smears...
If they meticulously adhere to restrictions, maybe, but in no way are they a negligible factor...
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 12:19 pm

Today

Gauci said: "This shows how important it is that we find these asymptomatic patients to control the outbreak, especially at this stage."
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 12:22 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:but if they are not careful (no one usually is...) touch their mouth (saliva) and touch any surface ,,, there will be problems if another person touches the same surface and then by mistake touches his eyes, mouth or nose.
That’s why they need to be careful. We should have learned by now. If not, masks.

I think with the increasing temperatures surfaces are less of a problem. Studies have shown direct sunlight can kill it on a surface. It’s the person-to-person transmission that’s the bigger worry.
Tell me about the fucking masks...
Everyone hates is and is struggling to keep it especially with the increasing temp and those who were spectacles.

I wonder how Chinese got used to it as for them is like a body part...
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 12:38 pm

Yesterday I went for a walk in Sliema (on the rocks by the sea and away from people, not the promenade which was full of people) and in the short distance I walked on the pavement I saw two masks thrown away on the floor. It’s stupid to litter in general, let alone a mask.

To be honest I haven’t worn the mask yet so I don’t how uncomfortable they are. I used a scarf when I needed one.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 12:59 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Yesterday I went for a walk in Sliema (on the rocks by the sea and away from people, not the promenade which was full of people) and in the short distance I walked on the pavement I saw two masks thrown away on the floor. It’s stupid to litter in general, let alone a mask.

To be honest I haven’t worn the mask yet so I don’t how uncomfortable they are. I used a scarf when I needed one.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby RedQueen » Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 pm

#12 wrote:
aterford wrote:I can only speak for myself and how things are going in the states. Perhaps it is different elsewhere, but the mantra we kept hearing repeated early on was that we were working to "flatten the curve" - it's not about preventing everyone from getting sick but rather just slowing down infection rates so that our medical systems don't get overwhelmed. And again - I can only speak for things over here, but in many, MANY regions of the US - precisely that has happened. The 'curve' has been flattened - dramatically. But at the same time...in many areas (mine included, tbh), it seems like the 'objective' has moved from "flatten the curve" to "everyone needs to stay home so no one gets sick" - it went from slowing the spread so that our healthcare systems aren't slammed to apparently trying to make sure nobody else gets sick, period. Just feels weird to me. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination; I don't think the virus is a hoax or something planted and/or spread intentionally and I don't think Bill Gates and WHO teamed up to get rich off a vaccine or anything like that. Not an anti-vaxxer, don't think it's caused by 5G, etc. All that being said - and again I can only speak for the US, more specifically my state - but I get the sense that perhaps some of our elected officials have enjoyed the additional authority afforded to them by 'emergency powers' or etc and are perhaps a bit hesitant to give that up. And I'd be lying if I told you that I didn't think our government would happily take advantage of a situation like this to see just how far they could reach, so to speak (like I said: it's not a hoax and I don't think it's intentional or anything, but at the same time I think our gov't would certainly be willing to use this situation to 'feel out' how people respond to varying degrees of encroachment, etc).

It's an odd situation and in whatever case I think we should not over-simplify or fall victim to false dichotomies. It seems like people have effectively fallen into two camps - the first of which is "open everything back up right now" and the second is "we should not even consider opening anything back up for a long time" - I suspect the correct path is somewhere in the middle.
We understand that pretty much all decisions are calculation-based; we don't make ethical/moral decisions based purely on principle. In principle, few would argue with a moral-based claim like "we should always attempt to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society" or similar. But we understand that it is not this simple in practice and a more appropriate question to be asked in light of this principle would be more akin to "how far are we willing to go in our efforts to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society?"

And I think that's the question we're wrestling with right now. Frankly, if our goal was to "flatten the curve" and to keep our health systems from getting overwhelmed, then mission complete. We've succeeded in that regard. If our goal was (or became) to keep everyone safe from the disease....then our lockdown/shelter-in-place should never end - and I think we can acknowledge that's simply an untenable situation.
Like I said above: we make decisions based on calculations; we don't decide things merely on principle but rather consider things like context, evidence, consequences, wider impact, etc - the gist of it is that we want to make decisions that provide the most good outcomes to the greatest number of persons. And that is largely the case with our "COVID-decision making" as well. It is relatively easy to arrive at the conclusion that some civil liberties should be temporarily suspended in our aim to protect life - particularly that of the vulnerable. That is a noble goal, and not one that is particularly contested, IMO - most people were okay with initial lockdowns, and the "moral calculation" there was a fairly easy one to make. But now that that has been done there's a much more complicated "moral calculation" to be made in regards to when to lift said lockdowns.

Keeping things locked down naturally has benefits. Less people get infected (well, theoretically. I think it's not as clear as that in actuality, but I digress). Roads are safer. We've seen far less violent crime - I think I read that March was the first March since 2002 in the US without a school shooting. But it's not all good, either. We have seen a number of elective surgeries and "nonessential" medical procedures postponed or canceled. That leads to things like missed diagnoses, deteriorating conditions, and potential future complications in said surgery (i.e. the 'routine procedure' that gets pushed back 6 months while the patient's condition deteriorates is now suddenly much riskier than it would have been months ago). The UN suggests that the economic impact of the virus (and naturally economic lockdown) will create large-scale famines: they suggest that we will potentially see more people die from the economic impact of the virus than from the virus itself. An estimated 265 MILLION people will be at starvation-levels of hunger by the end of the year. There's a well-documented link between unemployment rates and suicide in working men (Research suggests a 2-3x increase in death by suicide when compared to those who are employed in a given period). There are thousands of children from marginalized or at-risk communities who have (or will) see their social support systems absolutely fall apart the longer lockdown continues - those who rely on school lunches or after-school programs OR even simply from not having in-class learning (simply stated, a good education is a great doorway for at-risk children and lack thereof puts those same children at a profound disadvantage; time away from school is quite literally putting many children in an extremely disadvantageous situation when compared to being in-school. And as someone who works in education: online learning is not an adequate substitute, full-stop.) We've seen reports of child abuse go down dramatically - and that's not a good thing - teachers, social workers, counselors, etc simply aren't seeing children to make these reports. The general consensus in the child welfare field is that this abuse is happening just as much, if not more frequently as "pre-COVID" - it's just not getting reported right now. Etc, etc, etc. For everything, there is a cost. Further lockdown may save more lives from coronavirus, but we must understand that this comes at the cost of countless other impacts elsewhere. And I'm not saying that continuing lockdown is necessarily wrong - just that is is not as black/white as many would make it out to be.

So, have rambled on a bit, but just needed to get those thoughts out. Ultimately, what I am getting at is this: There are some bozos on both sides of the aisle and "open everything up today" and "shut it down until nobody can get sick" are both ridiculous positions to take. There is a balance to be had between paranoia and carelessness and we can submit to and respect our government leaders while also expecting that they are accountable to/for and able to explain their actions. It's a complicated matter and largely uncharted waters and I think it is OKAY to feel a bit confused and/or lost by the whole situation, I guess. I don't think it makes someone a bad person for wanting things to continue to be locked down, but I don't think it makes someone a bad person or uniformed or something for suggesting that perhaps it would be okay to start opening things up a bit more, too. I dunno, just rambling at this point, but needed to get that out, hahaha.
The thing is, that the virus ->seems<- easier to control than it initially seemed... So after flattening there was a chance of controlling - and it'd be stupid to not aim for it for a mere two weeks... So I don't think it‘s weird to keep lockdowns up - you guys still have around 30.000 infections per day...
Then again, your country is so big, it probably doesn’t need a federal course everywhere (which it doesn’t, if I'm not mistaken?!)
I‘m in the safety camp, that doesn‘t mean not opening things, but being careful... So yeah, obviously no major events like sports and whatnot, also skeptical about BuLi, but of course opening up other fields of business (restaurants I'd still prefer outside only, schools with restrictions) - we also need those to support our health insurance (not you guys )!
It’s just the mere lack of foresight and the ABSOLUTE dominance of economy by neoliberals that pisses me of...

In Germany, there's definitely been a change in the overall goal from "flatten the curve so we don't crash the health system" to "bring infection rates down as much as possible, even if we're running overcapacities". This is true for virologists (with the known exception) and epidemiologists as well as the federal government (the states are a different matter). This is due to what has been learned about the virus in the meantime. Death rates of Covid-patients put on ventilators are much higher than the usual death rates of patients put on ventilators. Covid isn't just a lung disease but people are dying from heart attacks, kidney failures, thrombosis etc. One SPD politician who is also a doctor / epidemiologist said the other day that Covid isn't so much a lung disease as a vascular disease.

Concerns have also mounted over the long-term effects. Those who survive have lung damages that may be permanent. Lung damages have even been diagnosed with people who had comparatively mild progresses. It's still unknown whether they are reversible.

Then there is the problem that we don't know whether and for how long someone who has overcome Covid has acquired immunity. Herd immunity may be unachievable in principle if immunity only lasts for a year.

As a result of these discoveries, scientists and politicians have changed the goal, but IMO this hasn't been communicated properly, at least in our country.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Thu May 07, 2020 7:43 pm

Here's a good article (IMO) which better articulates some of the concerns I was trying to voice. I certainly won't deny that there's value in keeping some functions still shut down and easing back into things - I think the "open everything up now" camp is not being particularly rational - but I also think that it's not as simple as simple keeping everything fully locked down until there's a vaccine or something. That's not sustainable in any sense.
"Flatten the curve" was - IMO - a perfectly reasonable and admirable goal. But I do also think that there does come a certain point in which we must ask if our *continued* efforts to avoid any further infection end up being more damaging than the virus itself. How far away is that point? I'm not sure. If our efforts to prevent any further infection end up having further negative impacts (as previously mentioned: starvation, abuse, suicide, loss of 'opportunity', academic disadvantages, knock-on impact to non-coronavirus medical conditions, widespread economic damage, etc) I do think it's reasonable to ask if that was/is the proper course of action to take.

All that to say: I'll be the first to say I don't have any better solution. There is just no easy answer, IMO. I don't think anyone who believes we should remain locked down are heartless or government shills or anything like that. But I also have some understanding for those who want things "opened up" again; it's not as simple as one camp wanting to protect life and the other camp wanting the elderly to die so the economy can get opened back up. I guess all I'm saying is that there is (or should be) room for questions and/or reasonable objections/concerns for both approaches. No perfect solution.

Edit: I guess it would be helpful if I remembered to link the article I referenced.
here [source]
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 8:35 pm

Haven’t read the article yet but your own post sums up my thoughts exactly. I’ve been saying it for a few weeks here even before it made any sense to lift restrictions, particular with reference to Malta’s tourism industry (about one third of our GDP): at some point the damage caused by the restrictions will be bigger than that caused by the virus.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 9:34 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Haven’t read the article yet but your own post sums up my thoughts exactly. I’ve been saying it for a few weeks here even before it made any sense to lift restrictions, particular with reference to Malta’s tourism industry (about one third of our GDP): at some point the damage caused by the restrictions will be bigger than that caused by the virus.
It is not the right time.... no way we can open the Airport or seaport just now...
July or August maybe.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 11:27 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Haven’t read the article yet but your own post sums up my thoughts exactly. I’ve been saying it for a few weeks here even before it made any sense to lift restrictions, particular with reference to Malta’s tourism industry (about one third of our GDP): at some point the damage caused by the restrictions will be bigger than that caused by the virus.
It is not the right time.... no way we can open the Airport or seaport just now...
July or August maybe.
I’m thinking more along the lines of restaurants and football. Just like aterford I don’t think those saying let’s open everything now are right. The airport has to be the last thing to open especially for an island. But other stuff, sure, the situation seems under control enough here, unlike other places (for instance in aterford’s place I don’t think I would be advocating reopening anything just yet).
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Fri May 08, 2020 2:55 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Haven’t read the article yet but your own post sums up my thoughts exactly. I’ve been saying it for a few weeks here even before it made any sense to lift restrictions, particular with reference to Malta’s tourism industry (about one third of our GDP): at some point the damage caused by the restrictions will be bigger than that caused by the virus.
It is not the right time.... no way we can open the Airport or seaport just now...
July or August maybe.
I’m thinking more along the lines of restaurants and football. Just like aterford I don’t think those saying let’s open everything now are right. The airport has to be the last thing to open especially for an island. But other stuff, sure, the situation seems under control enough here, unlike other places (for instance in aterford’s place I don’t think I would be advocating reopening anything just yet).


it's actually funny you mention as such. #12 kind of alluded to the same issue - while the federal government has largely handed over decision-making to the states (in regards to current lockdowns), in many areas even state-wide is far too large of a region, IMO. I'll use my own personal example: I live in Illinois. Illinois' population is roughly 13 million....and nearly 10 million of that is in the Chicago metropolitan area. Similarly, out of ~70k cases in the state....about 62k or so are also right in that Chicago area. Meanwhile, I live about 6 hours from there. My town's fairly well-isolated; it's not a huge travel area and is a bit out of the way for most people. In whatever case, our "metropolitan" area has around 80,000 persons....and less than 50 cases confirmed. But for the past ~two months we've been under the same restrictions as Chicago, and even for our "re-opening plan" the state's been cut into just four regions which will each have a 5-phase map to work thru. I'm of the mind that these four regions are still FAR too large - there's so much variation even within each region and in any case, all regions are currently in the same "re-opening phase" (regardless of the degree to which the virus is spreading or not in a given region) and all have the same rough timetable for re-opening, though they may enter different phases at different times. Frankly, our community has been largely unaffected by the virus - we've felt far more impact from the preventative measures - and if we're being honest with ourselves, even with ZERO preventative measures in place there's simply no reality in which my town gets hit as seriously as a town like Chicago does. It's just not logistically possible. I would still be perfectly accepting of a "travel ban" in which persons from my region are expected to stay in this region (and similarly persons from outside it should not travel IN), but I also think it's a bit ridiculous that every business in my area is currently operating on the same rough timetable as one of the hardest-hit cities in the world.

So, like I said above, I understand the rationale, and I don't really have many better solutions, but it's definitely frustrating, too.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Fri May 08, 2020 6:45 am

Gibraltar, with these stats
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... gibraltar/

the f.a decided to stop the league and deem it null
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Fénix » Fri May 08, 2020 1:22 pm

Croatian island of Brač has become a new COVID hotspot. 20 people in the last 24 hours infected, overall 36 people in the entire country, 6 from Split-Dalmatia county(plus the mentioned island which is located here), 5 in Zagreb City and 5 in my Osijek-Baranja county.

Those islanders are such retards. Numbers are just great in the last 2 weeks, but this bomb... And that's the same island where some idiots attacked 2 of my citizens there because a man wore NK Osijek shirt and then some HNK Hajduk rednecks stopped him and his wife and started to threat them, blocked the way so he can't move with their car and took him the shirt.

Now they should all suffer big time, arrogant low-IQ motherfuckers. :x
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