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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Wed May 06, 2020 9:36 pm

Lukas wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:1950s did people get vaccinated for certain diseases? I am certain that in England they did as in Malta , people where for sure.
I am asking cause there was a rumour going about Ita that one the reasons behind the big numbers was, that back then italian people were not vaccinated for certain diseases.

Was this the question you mentioned my friend? What diseases do you mean? I know there was a rumour a few weeks ago that the TB vaccine helped agains CV but I don’t think it was ever confirmed. This was given to first year high school kids until 2004 and I think I just missed out. Don’t remember getting it anyway and it sounds like something you wouldn’t just forget about as apparently it was really painful
They don’t help against the virus but they help prevent multiple diseases if you get infected...
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Wed May 06, 2020 9:54 pm

Lukas wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:1950s did people get vaccinated for certain diseases? I am certain that in England they did as in Malta , people where for sure.
I am asking cause there was a rumour going about Ita that one the reasons behind the big numbers was, that back then italian people were not vaccinated for certain diseases.

Was this the question you mentioned my friend? What diseases do you mean? I know there was a rumour a few weeks ago that the TB vaccine helped agains CV but I don’t think it was ever confirmed. This was given to first year high school kids until 2004 and I think I just missed out. Don’t remember getting it anyway and it sounds like something you wouldn’t just forget about as apparently it was really painful
Yes .

In fact I was referring precisely to the t.b
Here we take it either at 12/13/14 years of age...
The drs used to visit every two years.
First they make a test to see whether you need it or not... if it mark stays the person won't get it.

It was painful indeed... hehe during breaks we would play football with the right arm protecting the spot as to avoid the ball or another student hitting it.
I can still hear students screaming "careful, you hit or you almost hit my tb"




It is compulsory here and free of charge,apparently they are not even giving it to younger children! But as I said in my time they used to give it when during early teens.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Thu May 07, 2020 5:28 am

I can only speak for myself and how things are going in the states. Perhaps it is different elsewhere, but the mantra we kept hearing repeated early on was that we were working to "flatten the curve" - it's not about preventing everyone from getting sick but rather just slowing down infection rates so that our medical systems don't get overwhelmed. And again - I can only speak for things over here, but in many, MANY regions of the US - precisely that has happened. The 'curve' has been flattened - dramatically. But at the same time...in many areas (mine included, tbh), it seems like the 'objective' has moved from "flatten the curve" to "everyone needs to stay home so no one gets sick" - it went from slowing the spread so that our healthcare systems aren't slammed to apparently trying to make sure nobody else gets sick, period. Just feels weird to me. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination; I don't think the virus is a hoax or something planted and/or spread intentionally and I don't think Bill Gates and WHO teamed up to get rich off a vaccine or anything like that. Not an anti-vaxxer, don't think it's caused by 5G, etc. All that being said - and again I can only speak for the US, more specifically my state - but I get the sense that perhaps some of our elected officials have enjoyed the additional authority afforded to them by 'emergency powers' or etc and are perhaps a bit hesitant to give that up. And I'd be lying if I told you that I didn't think our government would happily take advantage of a situation like this to see just how far they could reach, so to speak (like I said: it's not a hoax and I don't think it's intentional or anything, but at the same time I think our gov't would certainly be willing to use this situation to 'feel out' how people respond to varying degrees of encroachment, etc).

It's an odd situation and in whatever case I think we should not over-simplify or fall victim to false dichotomies. It seems like people have effectively fallen into two camps - the first of which is "open everything back up right now" and the second is "we should not even consider opening anything back up for a long time" - I suspect the correct path is somewhere in the middle.
We understand that pretty much all decisions are calculation-based; we don't make ethical/moral decisions based purely on principle. In principle, few would argue with a moral-based claim like "we should always attempt to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society" or similar. But we understand that it is not this simple in practice and a more appropriate question to be asked in light of this principle would be more akin to "how far are we willing to go in our efforts to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society?"

And I think that's the question we're wrestling with right now. Frankly, if our goal was to "flatten the curve" and to keep our health systems from getting overwhelmed, then mission complete. We've succeeded in that regard. If our goal was (or became) to keep everyone safe from the disease....then our lockdown/shelter-in-place should never end - and I think we can acknowledge that's simply an untenable situation.
Like I said above: we make decisions based on calculations; we don't decide things merely on principle but rather consider things like context, evidence, consequences, wider impact, etc - the gist of it is that we want to make decisions that provide the most good outcomes to the greatest number of persons. And that is largely the case with our "COVID-decision making" as well. It is relatively easy to arrive at the conclusion that some civil liberties should be temporarily suspended in our aim to protect life - particularly that of the vulnerable. That is a noble goal, and not one that is particularly contested, IMO - most people were okay with initial lockdowns, and the "moral calculation" there was a fairly easy one to make. But now that that has been done there's a much more complicated "moral calculation" to be made in regards to when to lift said lockdowns.

Keeping things locked down naturally has benefits. Less people get infected (well, theoretically. I think it's not as clear as that in actuality, but I digress). Roads are safer. We've seen far less violent crime - I think I read that March was the first March since 2002 in the US without a school shooting. But it's not all good, either. We have seen a number of elective surgeries and "nonessential" medical procedures postponed or canceled. That leads to things like missed diagnoses, deteriorating conditions, and potential future complications in said surgery (i.e. the 'routine procedure' that gets pushed back 6 months while the patient's condition deteriorates is now suddenly much riskier than it would have been months ago). The UN suggests that the economic impact of the virus (and naturally economic lockdown) will create large-scale famines: they suggest that we will potentially see more people die from the economic impact of the virus than from the virus itself. An estimated 265 MILLION people will be at starvation-levels of hunger by the end of the year. There's a well-documented link between unemployment rates and suicide in working men (Research suggests a 2-3x increase in death by suicide when compared to those who are employed in a given period). There are thousands of children from marginalized or at-risk communities who have (or will) see their social support systems absolutely fall apart the longer lockdown continues - those who rely on school lunches or after-school programs OR even simply from not having in-class learning (simply stated, a good education is a great doorway for at-risk children and lack thereof puts those same children at a profound disadvantage; time away from school is quite literally putting many children in an extremely disadvantageous situation when compared to being in-school. And as someone who works in education: online learning is not an adequate substitute, full-stop.) We've seen reports of child abuse go down dramatically - and that's not a good thing - teachers, social workers, counselors, etc simply aren't seeing children to make these reports. The general consensus in the child welfare field is that this abuse is happening just as much, if not more frequently as "pre-COVID" - it's just not getting reported right now. Etc, etc, etc. For everything, there is a cost. Further lockdown may save more lives from coronavirus, but we must understand that this comes at the cost of countless other impacts elsewhere. And I'm not saying that continuing lockdown is necessarily wrong - just that is is not as black/white as many would make it out to be.

So, have rambled on a bit, but just needed to get those thoughts out. Ultimately, what I am getting at is this: There are some bozos on both sides of the aisle and "open everything up today" and "shut it down until nobody can get sick" are both ridiculous positions to take. There is a balance to be had between paranoia and carelessness and we can submit to and respect our government leaders while also expecting that they are accountable to/for and able to explain their actions. It's a complicated matter and largely uncharted waters and I think it is OKAY to feel a bit confused and/or lost by the whole situation, I guess. I don't think it makes someone a bad person for wanting things to continue to be locked down, but I don't think it makes someone a bad person or uniformed or something for suggesting that perhaps it would be okay to start opening things up a bit more, too. I dunno, just rambling at this point, but needed to get that out, hahaha.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby pyrasur » Thu May 07, 2020 7:03 am

I agree. When this first kicked off, the actual important work that we had to do was being canceled, but we were also crammed into tiny rooms to listen to our boss explain the dangers of Covid. The real kick in the balls was when I was directed to attend his retirement. I should have given him the finger then, instead of thinking it was my job to follow.

Now, it’s gone completely the other way. I’m lucky I have a job still, but I’m amazed that these bureaucrats are allowed to determine who gets to have a livelihood and who doesn’t, from the security of their own position. I don’t even know from what legal basis they have claimed the authority to order people to give up their livelihoods. I get the sense that they enjoy the power, and they feel like saviors because they think they are saving lives while people are watching their families go hungry.

There’s definitely a middle ground, but as always it’s the extremes that are the loudest, drowning out reason.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 7:36 am

ramsej84 wrote:
Lukas wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:1950s did people get vaccinated for certain diseases? I am certain that in England they did as in Malta , people where for sure.
I am asking cause there was a rumour going about Ita that one the reasons behind the big numbers was, that back then italian people were not vaccinated for certain diseases.

Was this the question you mentioned my friend? What diseases do you mean? I know there was a rumour a few weeks ago that the TB vaccine helped agains CV but I don’t think it was ever confirmed. This was given to first year high school kids until 2004 and I think I just missed out. Don’t remember getting it anyway and it sounds like something you wouldn’t just forget about as apparently it was really painful
Yes .

In fact I was referring precisely to the t.b
Here we take it either at 12/13/14 years of age...
The drs used to visit every two years.
First they make a test to see whether you need it or not... if it mark stays the person won't get it.

It was painful indeed... hehe during breaks we would play football with the right arm protecting the spot as to avoid the ball or another student hitting it.
I can still hear students screaming "careful, you hit or you almost hit my tb"




It is compulsory here and free of charge,apparently they are not even giving it to younger children! But as I said in my time they used to give it when during early teens.

I actually remember it not being that painful haha, although I still have the mark on my arm.
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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 7:48 am

Aterford, I also agree with you, especially on how the attitude seems to have changed and how the correct route seems to be down the middle. In Malta we are witnessing something similar, getting a handful (some 2) cases a day with fantastic recovery rates yet somehow this minor fact seems to be holding the entire country hostage.

Take the case of football. Some clubs have requested we start training in June and playing in July. The authorities said we cannot say yes or no for now. Why, because a person a day gets sick? I actually think it should be done much before the proposal, as early as next week. Same thing with restaurants. At this point there are so few who are infected that it does not really make sense to keep everything closed down. They should reopen with certain restrictions (no. of people allowed inside, per table, distance between tables, only one waiter per table rather than whoever happens to be close by).

We’ve opened non-essential shops here with the new requirement to wear masks. This also does not make much sense, considering we weren’t asked to wear masks when it was spreading much quicker.

I’m against the “let’s ditch all restrictions now” idea and even if everything reopened I still think there should be social distancing. I think we should be returning to normal at a quicker pace though. I would allow groups of 7/8 now and rather than urge people not to meet anyone from different households, I would urge them to be considerate in how many people they meet (for example it’s ok to meet the same 4 friends every day, but not OK to meet 4 new/different friends every day).

From a social/political/democratic point of view, here in Malta we are now in the dangerous position that because a person a day gets sick, we have an unelected official (who was given much more power at the start of the crisis) calling all the shots and making up legal notices without the need for parliament. She seems like a good and honest woman but also absolutely no one had ever heard of who our Superintendent for Public Health actually is, and now she is everyone’s hero. Even the most down-to-earth person is bound to enjoy that recognition.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Thu May 07, 2020 7:58 am

Daniel, the problem is that there must be plenty of people who have coronavirus and haven't been tested, either because they don't have any symptoms or because they have some symptoms but didn't bother going to get tested.

Until they start proper random testing in vast numbers, they can't properly estimate the number of infected people. And you can't use statistics from other countries for that because the parameters are different.
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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 8:23 am

Oh yeah, I agree - we should implement the antibody test, which as far as I know we are not using, and test most or all of the population. It is not so unrealistic for our size. This is better than swabbing because we will also know who had it in the past, and this would allows us to make decisions that are more reflective of reality.

Still, we can safely assume that almost all of those who do not know they have it are either asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms. As far as I know, though I may be wrong, an asymptomatic person is highly unlikely to spread it. If everyone were to get sick but have mild or no symptoms, that is still no reason to stay inside.

I am not a medical expert so my opinion doesn’t count much (though I dare say as a medical translator and with loads of doctor friends with whom I talk about their work in detail regularly, I am more knowledgeable than most of the country), but I feel like having lots of people who are barely sick is hardly a reason not to ease restrictions and start returning to normal, assuming some restrictions are kept in place, like vulnerable people staying inside. Even in this case though, I think we could do better and follow the Dublin example. Dublin is opening its parks between 1:30 and 3:30 pm every day just for the elderly. This allows them to go out, greatly helping their mental health, while at the same time staying safe. Of course the obvious problem to this is is how to monitor it, but I feel like many Maltese people would abide by the regulation especially when the elderly are involved.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 10:04 am

She has been the Superintendent for ages although she rarely featured... only did before the influenza season kicks in urging people to get the injection and on the odd feature about sexual transmitted diseases.

I have tons of respect for her (she is a Knight by the way :wink: ) but if she is to keep on insisting about not letting teams train she is going to be the culprit of many problems with local clubs .

p.s Valletta were fined for doing training sessions in their ground in Dingli
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 10:35 am

Yeah but she was never in the spotlight. Think about other Superintendents (not for public health) in Malta. Do you have any idea who they are?

I’m not saying this is what is happening, but it is also understandable that one might relish the spotlight. I also have a ton of respect for her and her composed approach, but now is the time to start moving power back from the health authorities to elected representatives.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Thu May 07, 2020 10:50 am

aterford wrote:I can only speak for myself and how things are going in the states. Perhaps it is different elsewhere, but the mantra we kept hearing repeated early on was that we were working to "flatten the curve" - it's not about preventing everyone from getting sick but rather just slowing down infection rates so that our medical systems don't get overwhelmed. And again - I can only speak for things over here, but in many, MANY regions of the US - precisely that has happened. The 'curve' has been flattened - dramatically. But at the same time...in many areas (mine included, tbh), it seems like the 'objective' has moved from "flatten the curve" to "everyone needs to stay home so no one gets sick" - it went from slowing the spread so that our healthcare systems aren't slammed to apparently trying to make sure nobody else gets sick, period. Just feels weird to me. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination; I don't think the virus is a hoax or something planted and/or spread intentionally and I don't think Bill Gates and WHO teamed up to get rich off a vaccine or anything like that. Not an anti-vaxxer, don't think it's caused by 5G, etc. All that being said - and again I can only speak for the US, more specifically my state - but I get the sense that perhaps some of our elected officials have enjoyed the additional authority afforded to them by 'emergency powers' or etc and are perhaps a bit hesitant to give that up. And I'd be lying if I told you that I didn't think our government would happily take advantage of a situation like this to see just how far they could reach, so to speak (like I said: it's not a hoax and I don't think it's intentional or anything, but at the same time I think our gov't would certainly be willing to use this situation to 'feel out' how people respond to varying degrees of encroachment, etc).

It's an odd situation and in whatever case I think we should not over-simplify or fall victim to false dichotomies. It seems like people have effectively fallen into two camps - the first of which is "open everything back up right now" and the second is "we should not even consider opening anything back up for a long time" - I suspect the correct path is somewhere in the middle.
We understand that pretty much all decisions are calculation-based; we don't make ethical/moral decisions based purely on principle. In principle, few would argue with a moral-based claim like "we should always attempt to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society" or similar. But we understand that it is not this simple in practice and a more appropriate question to be asked in light of this principle would be more akin to "how far are we willing to go in our efforts to protect the lives of the vulnerable in society?"

And I think that's the question we're wrestling with right now. Frankly, if our goal was to "flatten the curve" and to keep our health systems from getting overwhelmed, then mission complete. We've succeeded in that regard. If our goal was (or became) to keep everyone safe from the disease....then our lockdown/shelter-in-place should never end - and I think we can acknowledge that's simply an untenable situation.
Like I said above: we make decisions based on calculations; we don't decide things merely on principle but rather consider things like context, evidence, consequences, wider impact, etc - the gist of it is that we want to make decisions that provide the most good outcomes to the greatest number of persons. And that is largely the case with our "COVID-decision making" as well. It is relatively easy to arrive at the conclusion that some civil liberties should be temporarily suspended in our aim to protect life - particularly that of the vulnerable. That is a noble goal, and not one that is particularly contested, IMO - most people were okay with initial lockdowns, and the "moral calculation" there was a fairly easy one to make. But now that that has been done there's a much more complicated "moral calculation" to be made in regards to when to lift said lockdowns.

Keeping things locked down naturally has benefits. Less people get infected (well, theoretically. I think it's not as clear as that in actuality, but I digress). Roads are safer. We've seen far less violent crime - I think I read that March was the first March since 2002 in the US without a school shooting. But it's not all good, either. We have seen a number of elective surgeries and "nonessential" medical procedures postponed or canceled. That leads to things like missed diagnoses, deteriorating conditions, and potential future complications in said surgery (i.e. the 'routine procedure' that gets pushed back 6 months while the patient's condition deteriorates is now suddenly much riskier than it would have been months ago). The UN suggests that the economic impact of the virus (and naturally economic lockdown) will create large-scale famines: they suggest that we will potentially see more people die from the economic impact of the virus than from the virus itself. An estimated 265 MILLION people will be at starvation-levels of hunger by the end of the year. There's a well-documented link between unemployment rates and suicide in working men (Research suggests a 2-3x increase in death by suicide when compared to those who are employed in a given period). There are thousands of children from marginalized or at-risk communities who have (or will) see their social support systems absolutely fall apart the longer lockdown continues - those who rely on school lunches or after-school programs OR even simply from not having in-class learning (simply stated, a good education is a great doorway for at-risk children and lack thereof puts those same children at a profound disadvantage; time away from school is quite literally putting many children in an extremely disadvantageous situation when compared to being in-school. And as someone who works in education: online learning is not an adequate substitute, full-stop.) We've seen reports of child abuse go down dramatically - and that's not a good thing - teachers, social workers, counselors, etc simply aren't seeing children to make these reports. The general consensus in the child welfare field is that this abuse is happening just as much, if not more frequently as "pre-COVID" - it's just not getting reported right now. Etc, etc, etc. For everything, there is a cost. Further lockdown may save more lives from coronavirus, but we must understand that this comes at the cost of countless other impacts elsewhere. And I'm not saying that continuing lockdown is necessarily wrong - just that is is not as black/white as many would make it out to be.

So, have rambled on a bit, but just needed to get those thoughts out. Ultimately, what I am getting at is this: There are some bozos on both sides of the aisle and "open everything up today" and "shut it down until nobody can get sick" are both ridiculous positions to take. There is a balance to be had between paranoia and carelessness and we can submit to and respect our government leaders while also expecting that they are accountable to/for and able to explain their actions. It's a complicated matter and largely uncharted waters and I think it is OKAY to feel a bit confused and/or lost by the whole situation, I guess. I don't think it makes someone a bad person for wanting things to continue to be locked down, but I don't think it makes someone a bad person or uniformed or something for suggesting that perhaps it would be okay to start opening things up a bit more, too. I dunno, just rambling at this point, but needed to get that out, hahaha.
The thing is, that the virus ->seems<- easier to control than it initially seemed... So after flattening there was a chance of controlling - and it'd be stupid to not aim for it for a mere two weeks... So I don't think it‘s weird to keep lockdowns up - you guys still have around 30.000 infections per day...
Then again, your country is so big, it probably doesn’t need a federal course everywhere (which it doesn’t, if I'm not mistaken?!)
I‘m in the safety camp, that doesn‘t mean not opening things, but being careful... So yeah, obviously no major events like sports and whatnot, also skeptical about BuLi, but of course opening up other fields of business (restaurants I'd still prefer outside only, schools with restrictions) - we also need those to support our health insurance (not you guys )!
It’s just the mere lack of foresight and the ABSOLUTE dominance of economy by neoliberals that pisses me of...
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Thu May 07, 2020 10:54 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Oh yeah, I agree - we should implement the antibody test, which as far as I know we are not using, and test most or all of the population. It is not so unrealistic for our size. This is better than swabbing because we will also know who had it in the past, and this would allows us to make decisions that are more reflective of reality.

Still, we can safely assume that almost all of those who do not know they have it are either asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms. As far as I know, though I may be wrong, an asymptomatic person is highly unlikely to spread it. If everyone were to get sick but have mild or no symptoms, that is still no reason to stay inside.

I am not a medical expert so my opinion doesn’t count much (though I dare say as a medical translator and with loads of doctor friends with whom I talk about their work in detail regularly, I am more knowledgeable than most of the country), but I feel like having lots of people who are barely sick is hardly a reason not to ease restrictions and start returning to normal, assuming some restrictions are kept in place, like vulnerable people staying inside. Even in this case though, I think we could do better and follow the Dublin example. Dublin is opening its parks between 1:30 and 3:30 pm every day just for the elderly. This allows them to go out, greatly helping their mental health, while at the same time staying safe. Of course the obvious problem to this is is how to monitor it, but I feel like many Maltese people would abide by the regulation especially when the elderly are involved.
You’re wrong! Asymptomatic persons are much more likely to spread it
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 07, 2020 11:18 am

Are they? There are two sides to it as far as I can understand. If they are totally lax they can spread it easily because they’ll be going around thinking they’re healthy. But, as long as they are still conscious and careful, they are unlikely to spread it because they’re not sneezing/coughing frequently. At least this is my understanding. The virus doesn’t magically jump from one person to the next.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 07, 2020 11:40 am

but if they are not careful (no one usually is...) touch their mouth (saliva) and touch any surface ,,, there will be problems if another person touches the same surface and then by mistake touches his eyes, mouth or nose.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Thu May 07, 2020 11:45 am

I know the nephew of the superintendent for health. He thinks she is not relishing the power; on the contrary it is the complete opposite and she hates the limelight. He also didn't know anything about her being a Knight.
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