You are not logged in or registered. Please login or register to use the full functionality of BayernForum.com

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

A place where you can chill out with the BayernForum.com community and talk about anything.
 

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Fénix » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:58 pm

Why can't you all just stop and say: "yes, fine, okay, alright"? :roll: 13 pages of what? Not simply accepting someone else's thing and saying to yourselves "that's it, it's over"?

Dear God, just use the scissors and it's all done and you have come out of the circle and this repetitive dance. :)
User avatar
Fénix
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 12051
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Croatia
National Flag:
Croatia
Has thanked: 5365 times
Been thanked: 5007 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:03 pm

Fénix wrote:Why can't you all just stop and say: "yes, fine, okay, alright"? :roll: 13 pages of what? Not simply accepting someone else's thing and saying to yourselves "that's it, it's over"?

Dear God, just use the scissors and it's all done and you have come out of the circle and this repetitive dance. :)


Everyone is fighting for justice, but respecting the opinion of the other is almost impossible. We have not moved an inch in our development for years.
Everyone afraid of losing a typing war, my friend. :cheers:
Salihamidžić: “Correct. Dayot Upamecano will play for FC Bayern for the next five years."
User avatar
IsiahRashad
Moderator & 2019/20 Prediction Game Winner
Moderator & 2019/20 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 10987
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:38 pm
National Flag:
Bulgaria
Has thanked: 5546 times
Been thanked: 5873 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby nm462272 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Unfortunately there's really not much else to say, other than to hope that anti-vaxers and covid-deniers and their loved ones never get sick, because that would be a terrible way to learn you were wrong.

In any case, here's to hope that this pandemic will soon be over [-o<
Des interessiert mi ois ned, der Scheißdreck. Weltmeister samma! Den Pott hamma! Den scheiß goldener Schuh kannst da hinter d’Ohr’n schmiern! - Mia San Mia

Euer Hass ist unser Stolz!
User avatar
nm462272
I'm a post king!
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 4826
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:54 am
Location: München
National Flag:
United States of America
Has thanked: 4941 times
Been thanked: 2147 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:15 pm

Fénix wrote:Why can't you all just stop and say: "yes, fine, okay, alright"? :roll: 13 pages of what? Not simply accepting someone else's thing and saying to yourselves "that's it, it's over"?

Dear God, just use the scissors and it's all done and you have come out of the circle and this repetitive dance. :)


We could do that. maybe i am crazy or stupid but I get triggered when basic human rights are being questioned or even attacked. and I always have an urge to defend it. In this case I didnt like people labeling someone a monster, idiot, selfish etc..just because someone made a personal choice regarding his health and body.
Starin` at the world through my rearview
User avatar
sch0ll7
Moderator & EURO 2012 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: "I'm a Bayern Munich player and I've no intention of joining that club. I'm fine thanks."
Has thanked: 282 times
Been thanked: 882 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:17 pm

ramsej84 wrote:@scholl7 I respect your op and understand your fears...

Most of the ones attacking you are the ones who advocate the most liberal of ideas can't believe that they are not respecting your op.
Being liberal doesn’t mean you have to respect everyone and everything... You still not getting that is kind if a declaration of bankruptcy...

This debate is about facts... Trump said there were millions at his inauguration... There’s factual evidence to the contrary... He refused to accept that... He had Conway tell us it was "alternative facts" (meaning: non-facts)...
Doesn’t even matter if he still believes it or not... It’s wrong...

You can say "I believe Malta is the most beautiful country in the world" - that's an opinion! If you say "Malta is the most beautiful country on the moon" - it's wrong
Summer 2020: Hasan, show us your weakness!!
User avatar
#12
Chief Critic
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 26423
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 1:31 pm
National Flag:
Germany
Has thanked: 1329 times
Been thanked: 5942 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby RedQueen » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:19 pm

nm462272 wrote:Unfortunately there's really not much else to say, other than to hope that anti-vaxers and covid-deniers and their loved ones never get sick, because that would be a terrible way to learn you were wrong.

Just so you know ... even that doesn't convince them they're wrong.

Can't see tweet? Click here!

One doctor from Hamburg reported the same thing ... patients who barely survived a stay in the ICU and still not changing their mind.
"Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!" - Red Queen, Alice - Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
RedQueen
I'm a post king!
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:58 pm
National Flag:
Germany
Has thanked: 151 times
Been thanked: 1358 times
Gender: Female

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:25 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:Considering that this covid vaccine is still not out and neither me or you dont know its ingredients or how good will be or what kind of side effects will have. I am talking about Vaccines that are already out...So for the sake of the argument...we can forget about my researches, evidence etc...and we just use the manufacturers documentation about side-effects, diseases it can cause and its ingredients. Solely on that if I decide to not take a vaccine. For me it is a good enough reason...If it means that when new vaccine comes out and I take a good look at it and there are more positive effects than negative ones. I have no problem with taking it...But if it means that 0.005 percent people (elderly that have other health problems) will get to live a few more years and other 8 billion people will be exposed to side-effects and serious illness or disease..and has to live with it. I wont take it.


Is this really a good-faith argument? You've already said that your mind is made up on the matter. Are you now telling me that you'll review the data on the coronavirus vaccine and weigh the evidence and THEN make up your mind as to whether or not you'll receive it? Because that'd be in conflict with pretty much everything you've said so far.

Here's the kicker, though: "more positive effects than negative ones" has demonstrably been the case for.....literally every single vaccine, no? If your research suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear it, but all the research I've done - and the consensus of the medical community - is that the positive benefits of vaccination outweigh the potential negative side effects in virtually every case. I mean, can you find one vaccine for which the "negative effects" occur more frequently than the "positive effect"?

Hopefully that doesn't come off as an attack or whatever, but I don't think that ultimately just asking someone to produce evidence for their claims is that outrageous of a demand, nor does it constitute ridiculing them.

Like I said earlier: If I said the moon is made of cheese, and someone says "How did you arrive at that conclusion? Most scientists are certain that's not the case. Can you show me which ones are saying otherwise and why?" - that's perfectly fine. That's not an attack in any sense of the word.
And if/when they ask me for evidence, I'll produce it, because the burden of proof is on me to back up that claim. I'm not going to say I'm being attacked or ridiculed; I'll let the evidence speak for it self. If it's compelling enough, they'll understand. If it's not, I'll listen to their viewpoint and consider their evidence, too.
If I say "the moon is made of cheese" and someone says "You're an idiot for thinking that way, and if you think like that then you shouldn't be allowed to speak in public until you recant," well, that's another matter, but I think it's readily apparent that that's far from what is happening here.

But I will spell it out so it is perfectly clear:

Yes, people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health. I've consistently said that from the beginning, as has virtually every other person in this thread.
Yes, people making their own decisions regarding their health can sometimes come in the form of restricting contact with others who put their health at risk.

If Person A chooses to not receive a vaccination because he believes that is best for his health, that is his right.
If Person B chooses to not allow Person A around them because he believes that is best for *his* health, that is his right, too.

Ultimately it seems like this is the fundamental misunderstanding:
It feels like myself and others are saying/implying "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....but should do so with the understanding that there may be consequences as a result of those decisions."

But it feels like what you're saying/implying is more or less "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....and there should not be any consequences/repercussions/reactions as a result of those decisions."
God Bless Thomas Müller
User avatar
aterford
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:40 am
Has thanked: 4675 times
Been thanked: 4228 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:39 am

aterford wrote:Is this really a good-faith argument? You've already said that your mind is made up on the matter. Are you now telling me that you'll review the data on the coronavirus vaccine and weigh the evidence and THEN make up your mind as to whether or not you'll receive it? Because that'd be in conflict with pretty much everything you've said so far.

Here's the kicker, though: "more positive effects than negative ones" has demonstrably been the case for.....literally every single vaccine, no? If your research suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear it, but all the research I've done - and the consensus of the medical community - is that the positive benefits of vaccination outweigh the potential negative side effects in virtually every case. I mean, can you find one vaccine for which the "negative effects" occur more frequently than the "positive effect"?

Hopefully that doesn't come off as an attack or whatever, but I don't think that ultimately just asking someone to produce evidence for their claims is that outrageous of a demand, nor does it constitute ridiculing them.


My mind is made up on the matter when it comes to current vaccines. I have my doubts that when a corona vaccine comes out it in record time that it will be any better. I will give it a critical look like I have done for everything and if I decide that is not good for me I wont take it. But if somehow they produce a vaccine that is not harmful for me I will consider taking it. you can believe me or not. I really dont care.

I will say it again. I dont want to go in circles again as I have been through this a few times before and it always ends the same way. We can go on and on for 50 pages and it will always be me saying something and you all trying to debunk me. We all know this. And I dont want to lose my time and energy for something that doesnt get me anywhere. You can take this as you want and say "you dont have any evidence and just making things up". that is fine by me. All I can say if you really want to know more...then do some more research.

I will PM you a link that I believe it is a great start to a research and you can take your time to read it and if you have any questions or dont agree with something we can talk about it.

aterford wrote:Yes, people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health. I've consistently said that from the beginning, as has virtually every other person in this thread.
Yes, people making their own decisions regarding their health can sometimes come in the form of restricting contact with others who put their health at risk.

If Person A chooses to not receive a vaccination because he believes that is best for his health, that is his right.
If Person B chooses to not allow Person A around them because he believes that is best for *his* health, that is his right, too.

Ultimately it seems like this is the fundamental misunderstanding:
It feels like myself and others are saying/implying "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....but should do so with the understanding that there may be consequences as a result of those decisions."

But it feels like what you're saying/implying is more or less "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....and there should not be any consequences/repercussions/reactions as a result of those decisions."


I agree with the first point you made.
A person can choose to distance himself from another person, or not allow another person to come near him.

Second point: depends on the consequences/reactrions...if by consequences it means another person will distance himself from him. There is no problem. But if that person will be penalized or systematically restricted to live a normal life (like traveling, visiting public places, concerts etc...) then this is not right and it is a clear case of discrimination or punishment.
Starin` at the world through my rearview
User avatar
sch0ll7
Moderator & EURO 2012 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: "I'm a Bayern Munich player and I've no intention of joining that club. I'm fine thanks."
Has thanked: 282 times
Been thanked: 882 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:26 am

So all these arguments fundamentally boil down to sch0ll7 wanting to tell us that he is skeptical regarding the quality of the vaccine (in terms of side effects), believes he has a right to choose not to take it, and will wait and see when it's actually released before taking a final decision to take it or not.
30GB free cloud storage. Click here for the referral.
User avatar
MUTU
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 48839
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: L-Imqabba, Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 8891 times
Been thanked: 14496 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:25 pm

Just saw this and thought it funny.

Sent from my Mi A3 using Tapatalk
Image
User avatar
PunkCapitalist
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 8775
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 3769 times
Been thanked: 3476 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:52 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
aterford wrote:Yes, people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health. I've consistently said that from the beginning, as has virtually every other person in this thread.
Yes, people making their own decisions regarding their health can sometimes come in the form of restricting contact with others who put their health at risk.

If Person A chooses to not receive a vaccination because he believes that is best for his health, that is his right.
If Person B chooses to not allow Person A around them because he believes that is best for *his* health, that is his right, too.

Ultimately it seems like this is the fundamental misunderstanding:
It feels like myself and others are saying/implying "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....but should do so with the understanding that there may be consequences as a result of those decisions."

But it feels like what you're saying/implying is more or less "Everyone should be able to make decisions about their own health....and there should not be any consequences/repercussions/reactions as a result of those decisions."


I agree with the first point you made.
A person can choose to distance himself from another person, or not allow another person to come near him.

Second point: depends on the consequences/reactrions...if by consequences it means another person will distance himself from him. There is no problem. But if that person will be penalized or systematically restricted to live a normal life (like traveling, visiting public places, concerts etc...) then this is not right and it is a clear case of discrimination or punishment.


No worries. Thanks for the reply, I will give it a look!

I guess the question is then where it's okay to draw that line.

Earlier you were in agreement that - for example - a shop owner has the right to refuse entry to a non-vaccinated customer as they believe it best for their health and/or their customers.

If that is okay...what if instead of a shop-owner it's a chain-store CEO making that decision? If Walmart or Tesco or whoever says company-wide they're not allowing unvaccinated persons to shop in their store (for sake of discussion, when I say 'unvaccinated' I'm just referring to the COVID-vaccine, just to keep the scope small at the moment), is that then wrong? Why or why not?

If a taxi-cab driver says you can't ride in my cab if you haven't received the COVID-vaccine, I think that would fall in line with the "shop owner" example; I suspect you'd be okay with him making that decision. What if it's the owner of the taxi-cab company? How about when it's the CEO of the airline company?

How about a concert? Should the musicians performing not have the right to do what they believe is best for their own health and safety? I'd say they should be able to do so. Does that mean that they should be allowed to bar entry to their concerts from unvaccinated persons? If I'm being consistent, it's hard for me to think of a reason that they shouldn't be able to.

You get the picture. I think where it perhaps may get murky in your eyes is when it comes to government involvement, which I kind of understand. But barring that - if a person believes the best decision for their health is to not get vaccinated, that's fine. But if another person believes the best decision for THEIR health is to not allow that un-vaccinated person near them, that's fine too. And if that extends to their business/place of work - that's their right too. And I don't think it's too dissimilar for "big businesses" or corporations or whatever. Just like individuals have the right to make decisions for what is best about their health, I think if we're being consistent we should also allow that places of business, etc should also have the right to prohibit these persons if they believe it's putting their business, customers, or employees at risk. And so on and so forth.

In short: I'm having a hard time coming up with a consistent application of "Persons should be allowed to make their own decisions about their health" that doesn't also apply to those wanting to make decisions that bar unvaccinated persons from being around them, in a variety of contexts.
God Bless Thomas Müller
User avatar
aterford
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:40 am
Has thanked: 4675 times
Been thanked: 4228 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:48 pm

aterford wrote:No worries. Thanks for the reply, I will give it a look!

I guess the question is then where it's okay to draw that line.

Earlier you were in agreement that - for example - a shop owner has the right to refuse entry to a non-vaccinated customer as they believe it best for their health and/or their customers.

If that is okay...what if instead of a shop-owner it's a chain-store CEO making that decision? If Walmart or Tesco or whoever says company-wide they're not allowing unvaccinated persons to shop in their store (for sake of discussion, when I say 'unvaccinated' I'm just referring to the COVID-vaccine, just to keep the scope small at the moment), is that then wrong? Why or why not?

If a taxi-cab driver says you can't ride in my cab if you haven't received the COVID-vaccine, I think that would fall in line with the "shop owner" example; I suspect you'd be okay with him making that decision. What if it's the owner of the taxi-cab company? How about when it's the CEO of the airline company?

How about a concert? Should the musicians performing not have the right to do what they believe is best for their own health and safety? I'd say they should be able to do so. Does that mean that they should be allowed to bar entry to their concerts from unvaccinated persons? If I'm being consistent, it's hard for me to think of a reason that they shouldn't be able to.

You get the picture. I think where it perhaps may get murky in your eyes is when it comes to government involvement, which I kind of understand. But barring that - if a person believes the best decision for their health is to not get vaccinated, that's fine. But if another person believes the best decision for THEIR health is to not allow that un-vaccinated person near them, that's fine too. And if that extends to their business/place of work - that's their right too. And I don't think it's too dissimilar for "big businesses" or corporations or whatever. Just like individuals have the right to make decisions for what is best about their health, I think if we're being consistent we should also allow that places of business, etc should also have the right to prohibit these persons if they believe it's putting their business, customers, or employees at risk. And so on and so forth.

In short: I'm having a hard time coming up with a consistent application of "Persons should be allowed to make their own decisions about their health" that doesn't also apply to those wanting to make decisions that bar unvaccinated persons from being around them, in a variety of contexts.


I am not okay with some of the things you mentioned. But if an taxi driver refuses to drive someone because he thinks that person will endanger him. He has a right to do it. Like today some taxi drivers wont drive a drunk person, or doesnt allow smoking, eating etc.
Same goes for shop owner etc...

They have the right to do it as it is their personal business. The problem is when it comes to government restricting you doing things.

We could say that situation with abortion is similar. In my view much worse but okay...

A women decides she wants to have an abortion in most cases because she is not ready to have a child (financial situation, emotional etc..).
She says that she has a right to do with her body whatever she wants. Her body her choice. Even if it means killing (in 100% cases) an innocent unborn child.
Do I agree with it. NO. Do I think it should be prohibited. Yes in most cases. Do I think government prohibiting it would make anything better. Probably not as a woman would still go and get abortion in some other country.
Do I think that government or anyone (except parents) has a right to decide otherwise. No.
So we have a law in most western countries that doesnt discriminate or in any other way punish a person that chooses to kill their own child. with more than 40.000.000 abortions per year. So why should any government have a say if i want to or not vaccinate.
Starin` at the world through my rearview
User avatar
sch0ll7
Moderator & EURO 2012 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 5080
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: "I'm a Bayern Munich player and I've no intention of joining that club. I'm fine thanks."
Has thanked: 282 times
Been thanked: 882 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby DRvad14 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:29 pm

These Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir and Interferon regimens appeared to have little or no effect on hospitalized COVID-19, as indicated by overall mortality, initiation of ventilation and duration of hospital stay. The mortality findings contain most of the randomized evidence on Remdesivir and Interferon, and are consistent with meta-analyses of mortality in all major trials.

User avatar
DRvad14
I'm a post king!
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 2876
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:40 pm
National Flag:
India
Has thanked: 1985 times
Been thanked: 1656 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:18 am

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
User avatar
ramsej84
I tattooed BayernForum.com on my ass
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 50528
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:47 pm
Location: Birkirkara - Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 33363 times
Been thanked: 7259 times
Gender: Male

Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:24 pm

Mother says police beat son for not wearing mask
Police are investigating the allegations posted online [source]


=D>
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
User avatar
ramsej84
I tattooed BayernForum.com on my ass
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 50528
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:47 pm
Location: Birkirkara - Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 33363 times
Been thanked: 7259 times
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 1 guest