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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:57 am

RedQueen wrote:But refusal to wear masks, refusal to follow infection control measures, refusal to vaccinate affects not only you, but also others. Your insistence on your freedom takes away the freedom of others, by threatening their health, their safety.


Again...This is your view.

You are saying that others (people that think vaccines are harmful for their health) should vaccinate just because you think vaccinations are good for you. So if you look at this from a different point of view. you are actually trying to harm them by vaccinating them. Your insistence on your freedom to vaccinate takes away the freedom of others, by threatening their health, their safety.

RedQueen wrote:I'm pretty sure we won't need to force anyone to vaccinate because the winter months will wear people down to the point where a huge majority can't wait to be vaccinated.


What happens if huge majority doesnt wait to be vaccinated? Do we force them to do it?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby RedQueen » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:08 am

sch0ll7 wrote:Again...This is your view.

You are saying that others (people that think vaccines are harmful for their health) should vaccinate just because you think vaccinations are good for you.

No, I think they are good for society. And 99 percent of all scientists agree with me.

So if you look at this from a different point of view. you are actually trying to harm them by vaccinating them. Your insistence on your freedom to vaccinate takes away the freedom of others, by threatening their health, their safety.

I'm not threatening anyone, nor am I taking away anyone's freedom, as I don't advocate mandatory vaccination. Unless you feel threatened by people disagreeing with you and pointing out the antisocial implications of your behaviour, of course.

What happens if huge majority doesnt wait to be vaccinated? Do we force them to do it?

Hypothetical question. If polls are to be believed, that's not going to happen.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:46 am

RedQueen wrote:I'm not threatening anyone, nor am I taking away anyone's freedom, as I don't advocate mandatory vaccination.


another quote from you: I'm all for freedom of choice, unless your freedom of choice hurts the rights of others.

if i understand it right...this means...that in this case you are not for freedom of choice...just because you and most scientists have different beliefs?

RedQueen wrote:I'm not threatening anyone, nor am I taking away anyone's freedom, as I don't advocate mandatory vaccination. Unless you feel threatened by people disagreeing with you and pointing out the antisocial implications of your behaviour, of course.


your quote above shows that what you wrote here is contradicting.

I never feel threatened by people disagreeing with me. I think that is probably the most common thing in this world. There are a lot of different views on different things. I understand that. But the problem is when someone is trying to force someone into something because of their beliefs. Then someone has every right to feel threatened.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:35 am

Thing is, it’s not a belief anymore... Science is not some weird shaman voodoo!
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:13 am

sch0ll7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Nobody is advocating policemen barging down your door, tasing you and administering the vaccine.

It's your choice to take it. But by doing so you are doing a disservice to the world and to our descendants.

Why is it so hard to understand?


I understand that you think the vaccine is actually safe and it is better for you to take it. to that extent that even people who dont agree with you should take it just to keep you happy and secure.
But what if a person decides that it wont take it because that person thinks it is bad for him and it does more harm than good? should that person be submited to force?

One person doesnt mind someone taking it if it wants to do it, even if it makes more harm than good to that persons health. but you dont see that person forcing someone not to take it.

why is it so hard for you to understand that some people just share different views.


Who is forcing you to take it? No one. Stop claiming anyone is.

But you'd don't think I have every right to be angry at someone who won't get vaccinated because he feels healthy and doesn't want to take any personal risks, contracts the virus, and then coughs into my then-vaccinated vulnerable mother's face and have, say, a 1% chance of killing her?

Also with regards to what to do as a father, I don't think that they will/can give vaccination to under 12s first of all because they haven't conducted testing. At least the youngest Pfizer tested on were 12 year olds. But here's another dilemma for a father: say you have a 13 year old daughter and you recommend her not to get vaccinated, but God forbid she gets it and dies... would you be able to live with yourself? We know at least that the virus has killed people, the vaccination so far not.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:18 am

sch0ll7 wrote:
RedQueen wrote:I'm pretty sure we won't need to force anyone to vaccinate because the winter months will wear people down to the point where a huge majority can't wait to be vaccinated.


What happens if huge majority doesnt wait to be vaccinated? Do we force them to do it?


Then we'd be stuck with wearing face masks and other restrictive measures for a number of decades. I don't think any sane person wants this scenario.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:45 am

RedQueen wrote:
What happens if huge majority doesnt wait to be vaccinated? Do we force them to do it?

Hypothetical question. If polls are to be believed, that's not going to happen.

Interesting, the polls over here are way less encouraging. The vast majority are at a "wait and see" stage. I suspect that closer to the date there will be campaigns and better education and then there's the word of mouth recommendation which in some communities works wonders: "oh, you didn't take it? I did, I feel great now, no side effects whatsoever"

EDIT: In France:
Only 59 per cent of French people are prepared to get vaccinated, according to an Ipsos opinion poll published in September [source]
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:26 am

#12 wrote:Thing is, it’s not a belief anymore... Science is not some weird shaman voodoo!

This. This is precisely what many seem to fail to grasp.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:48 am

RedQueen wrote:The only question for me is which vaccine to prefer. As DD is a scientist, I'd like to hear his opinion. From all I've read, the mRNA vaccines, although a novel technology, are those with the least risks / side effects to be expected. Would you agree?

Super interesting question. I'm no vaccine expert, but I'm inclined to yes.

It's true that a vector vaccine, which uses the "active" protein from the virus is more likely to produce side effects. It's more likely to trigger auto-immune response, for instance, or reveal vulnerabilities that the recipient didn't know about.

The mRNA-driven vaccine as you probably know only gives you the" encoding" of the would-be protein, attempts to create said protein in your body whilst forcing the body to create an antibody in the process. This does sound "safer", but it's also less likely to be effective, i.e. the mRNA may just stand dormant forever depending on how receptive your body is. It's a similar concept to why some people show more recessive genes and some don't. If your body completely shuts the encoding down, then the only choice is to increase the dose to improve the likelihood of the creation of the protein, theoretically. This obviously also increases the risk of catching the real disease.

That being said Pfizer had been very clear that their mRNA-driven vaccine triggered an immune response and produced antibodies. I'm inclined to trust that. The reason why I highlighted that the demographic spread of the tests could be better is to minimise the risk I highlighted above, i.e. different populations may or may not need finely different doses.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:50 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:
RedQueen wrote:The only question for me is which vaccine to prefer. As DD is a scientist, I'd like to hear his opinion. From all I've read, the mRNA vaccines, although a novel technology, are those with the least risks / side effects to be expected. Would you agree?

Super interesting question. I'm no vaccine expert, but I'm inclined to yes.

It's true that a vector vaccine, which uses the "active" protein from the virus is more likely to produce side effects. It's more likely to trigger auto-immune response, for instance, or reveal vulnerabilities that the recipient didn't know about.

The mRNA-driven vaccine as you probably know only gives you the" encoding" of the would-be protein, attempts to create said protein in your body whilst forcing the body to create an antibody in the process. This does sound "safer", but it's also less likely to be effective, i.e. the mRNA may just stand dormant forever depending on how receptive your body is. It's a similar concept to my some people show more recessive genes and some don't. If your body completely shuts the encoding down, then the only choice is to increase the dose to improve the likelihood of the creation of the protein, theoretically. This obviously also increases the risk of catching the real disease.

That being said Pfizer had been very clear that their mRNA-driven vaccine triggered an immune response and produced antibodies. I'm inclined to trust that. The reason why I highlighted that the demographic spread of the tests could be better is to minimise the risk I highlighted above, i.e. different populations may or may not need finely different doses.

Interesting. The good thing is that we already have the anti-bodies test, so if one vaccine doesn't work on one person, that person could either try again or use a different kind of vaccine.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby nm462272 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:37 am

re: people hesitant to be vaccinated - perhaps once they see that the vaccine is both effective and has minor/minimal/no side effects, the number of people willing to be vaccinated may increase. Also, maybe governments can incentivize getting the vaccine, for example ability to travel internationally, get visas, etc.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:10 am

MUTU wrote:Interesting. The good thing is that we already have the anti-bodies test, so if one vaccine doesn't work on one person, that person could either try again or use a different kind of vaccine.

Quite possibly but I don’t know enough on how we might decide that it’s safe to give that extra dose. It’s likely that the body’s lack of immune response from the previous dose is enough to tell us that it’d be safe, but I won’t pretend to know this one.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:37 am

What's going to be a dilemma for governments is that given the certainty that there will be a mix of vaccinated and non-vaccinated people, do they make discriminatory laws (eg people lacking the required anti-bodies would need to remain working face masks)? Or should the people who took the vaccine suffer along with the rest?

Incentives? I'll tell you what incentives they could do. Whoever needs Coronavirus treatment having earlier refused vaccination and without being certified by a doctor as having a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated, would need to pay for his/her treatment rather than getting it for free. It's only fair.

But yes, governments could also forbid travel to their country by people lacking the anti-bodies I guess.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby nm462272 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:43 am

MUTU wrote:What's going to be a dilemma for governments is that given the certainty that there will be a mix of vaccinated and non-vaccinated people, do they make discriminatory laws (eg people lacking the required anti-bodies would need to remain working face masks)? Or should the people who took the vaccine suffer along with the rest?


this is a tough one, not sure. it will be interesting at what point governments say face masks are no longer needed. i suppose when the #s of new infections reduces to a certain level?

MUTU wrote:Incentives? I'll tell you what incentives they could do. Whoever needs Coronavirus treatment having earlier refused vaccination and without being certified by a doctor as having a valid medical reason for not getting vaccinated, would need to pay for his/her treatment rather than getting it for free. It's only fair.

But yes, governments could also forbid travel to their country by people lacking the anti-bodies I guess.


agreed on medical costs - thats the idea, that if you want to take from society (have your medical care paid for) you must likewise give to society (being vaccinated).

regarding requiring immunizations, the US already requires people to have a wide array of immunizations if they want a visa: https://www.uscis.gov/tools/designated- ... quirements
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:33 pm

You're right they'll probably continue to use the R factor to determine whether rules should be relaxed or not. It's however unfair to people who have built good antibodies through vaccination or otherwise that they have to be restricted with their freedom simply because others exercised their freedom to reject vaccination.
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