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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:06 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:There's literally no one here advocating for forcing vaccines. You butted in and over-reacted, I mean bloody hell. Take a chamomile.


i havent over-reacted. I just said what needed to be said about freedom of choice...after some of you attacked our american user and start calling him names and stupid...just because he believes in freedom of choice and have different views on it.
Sorry but I hate that and especially when it happens on forums. This is where people should have a normal convo and not attack anyone who has different views.

Dumbledore7 wrote:
There will always be people who can't / won't take the vaccines - either because they are physically vulnerable to vaccines, or still stupid enough to refuse any vaccination at all. All the more reason to vaccinate yourself so that the virus is less likely to be transmitted to these people.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:13 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:No, why should we?


We shoudnt!

But if you think about it...by your logic...everyone who chooses to take risks with their health, should have treatment refused because it is his/hers fault because they decided to take risks even when there are evident side-effects and diseases (written on the box of a vaccine) that you can get with the vaccine.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:14 pm

Freedom of choice my arse. Laws literally exist only so that people don't exercise too much of their "freedom". Don't be a moron.

Anyways, again nothing about "forcing" was ever brought up until you came in. Most were perfectly happy with just bringing up decent arguments before you called factual science wrong. Maybe it's time you get back out.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:22 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:No, why should we?


We shoudnt!

But if you think about it...by your logic...everyone who chooses to take risks with their health, should have treatment refused because it is his/hers fault because they decided to take risks even when there are evident side-effects and diseases (written on the box of a vaccine) that you can get with the vaccine.

Never said that. But okay, let's say I agree with you, sure. Maybe treatments should be refused, if we know that those diseases came from vaccines. In most places children who do show signs of vulnerability to vaccines aren't actually given vaccines though, so I think we have a problem testing that logic. Whoops.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:27 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Freedom of choice my arse. Laws literally exist only so that people don't exercise too much of their "freedom". Don't be a moron.


Freedom of choice should not be questioned when someone is choosing for himself. Laws exist so people can coexist by not harming or forcing others.

Dumbledore7 wrote:Anyways, again nothing about "forcing" was ever brought up until you came in. Most were perfectly happy with just bringing up decent arguments before you called factual science wrong. Maybe it's time you get back out.


Just look a few lines above. And you can see your "forcing" by saying "Freedom of choice my arse." So anyone that wants to exercise their freedom of choice when it comes to his health and body...you deny their right to do so. For me my friend that is a clear sign of forcing someone.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:33 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
#12 wrote:Well... Meh... Objectively, the novel Coronavirus is not THAT lethal, albeit it seems to make it hard to fully recover... But with other, more lethal diseases, I think the government should definitely have the right to force you... Cause not everybody has said choice you know... There are people who simply cannot get vaccinated and it is no small amount...

All that to say: I see your point and I can partly agree - but not universally...


I can see from where you are coming and probably a lot of people think like that. i wont say it is wrong to assume it is good to protect other people that are more exposed to something...but...

where does forcing someone end? how can a government decide to force someone to do something against their will? that is everything and even worse than what we were tought about communism, fascism, dictatorship etc...

A lot of people die from drinking, smoking, bad eating habits. Do I think a government should prohibit alcohol, tobacco etc... YES. it would be great for us and our healt and it would save us billions for our health system. Does it mean that our government has a right to force everyone not to do it and prohibit everything. NO.
Well, Germany works a little different... It’s pretty easy: you want the benefits? Childcare, Kondergarten, education,...? You gotta get a measles shot...
It’s not forcing someone down to do it, but if you want to benefit from society, benefit society!
Also I think premiums for these people should go up significantly (healthcare is mandatory in Germany)
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:41 pm

#12 wrote:Well, Germany works a little different... It’s pretty easy: you want the benefits? Childcare, Kondergarten, education,...? You gotta get a measles shot...
It’s not forcing someone down to do it, but if you want to benefit from society, benefit society!
Also I think premiums for these people should go up significantly (healthcare is mandatory in Germany)


It is probably the same all over EU. i wont say I agree with how it is done but at least for now you have a choice.

Even if non-vaccinated children got some of those diseases...Getting measles or chickenpox and treating it costs much less if anything compared to treating diseases caused by cigarettes and alcohol, not to mention bad eating habits.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:41 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:Freedom of choice should not be questioned when someone is choosing for himself. Laws exist so people can coexist by not harming or forcing others.

I just spent too much of my time trying to make you understand that taking a vaccine is a decision you make for the sake of others, not you, but okay. I can see it's a lost cause.

sch0ll7 wrote:Just look a few lines above. And you can see your "forcing" by saying "Freedom of choice my arse." So anyone that wants to exercise their freedom of choice when it comes to his health and body...you deny their right to do so. For me my friend that is a clear sign of forcing someone.

Lol who am I your president? Where and how could I deny your rights? With mentality like that maybe you deserve to be forced :roll:

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:52 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:I just spent too much of my time trying to make you understand that taking a vaccine is a decision you make for the sake of others, not you, but okay. I can see it's a lost cause.


You dont need to spend your time to make me understand something. I am a grown man I can think for myself.

Dumbledore7 wrote:Lol who am I your president? Where and how could I deny your rights? With mentality like that maybe you deserve to be forced

Looks like I'm done. Apologies to everyone else for the spams.


You are nothing so you cant deny my rights. But wishing my rights were denied/forced is not so different from denying it.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby nm462272 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:08 pm

Here's a fun thought exercise. You find yourself with a group of people who have nut allergies - some mild, some more extreme. But you yourself, you love peanut butter sandwiches more than anything - in fact, it's your favorite meal!

When it comes lunch time, you think "it's my choice to eat what I want, and no one else can tell me what I can or cannot put in my body". So you eat that peanut butter sandwich! Unfortunately, one of the people in the group somehow gets a peanut piece in his salad and whoops, he dies.

Is the peanut butter sandwich loving man in the wrong? I mean, he only did what he wanted to his own body after all?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:30 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Look at the fucking state of this. MUTU raised argumentative points. And your answer is "sorry, you're wrong, but I can't explain it so you should look it up yourself". How's anyone supposed to trust you? Which bit of MUTU's post is wrong and why?


I am not here to make you trust me and to change your mind. you can believe whatever you want and I am ok with that. I was just trying to point out that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a choice if they want to take something or not. If I say i have my reasons to believe that vaccines are not safe...that is my right and you cant force me to think differently and to just go with "let us all get vaccinated".


Nobody is advocating policemen barging down your door, tasing you and administering the vaccine.

It's your choice to take it. But by doing so you are doing a disservice to the world and to our descendants.

Why is it so hard to understand?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby MUTU » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:33 pm

#12 wrote:So seeing as Dumbledore is a scientist and others have expressed their views as well: you will all take it?

I am far from being anti-vaccine but I WAS a little skeptical about this one... There’s money to be made here and it went down really fast... So I wanted to wait a little... However... I also see it as the only way out of this shit - and safety standards are pretty high, especially in the EU... So I guess my concerns aren’t too serious?

Yeah I'm concerned. But I will take it to protect others.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:40 am

MUTU wrote:Nobody is advocating policemen barging down your door, tasing you and administering the vaccine.

It's your choice to take it. But by doing so you are doing a disservice to the world and to our descendants.

Why is it so hard to understand?


I understand that you think the vaccine is actually safe and it is better for you to take it. to that extent that even people who dont agree with you should take it just to keep you happy and secure.
But what if a person decides that it wont take it because that person thinks it is bad for him and it does more harm than good? should that person be submited to force?

One person doesnt mind someone taking it if it wants to do it, even if it makes more harm than good to that persons health. but you dont see that person forcing someone not to take it.

why is it so hard for you to understand that some people just share different views.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:01 am

nm462272 wrote:Here's a fun thought exercise. You find yourself with a group of people who have nut allergies - some mild, some more extreme. But you yourself, you love peanut butter sandwiches more than anything - in fact, it's your favorite meal!

When it comes lunch time, you think "it's my choice to eat what I want, and no one else can tell me what I can or cannot put in my body". So you eat that peanut butter sandwich! Unfortunately, one of the people in the group somehow gets a peanut piece in his salad and whoops, he dies.

Is the peanut butter sandwich loving man in the wrong? I mean, he only did what he wanted to his own body after all?


Here's a fun thought exercise. You find yourself with a decision to vaccinate your child. A little creature with barely any defense/immune system.
When it comes to vaccination time you think "I am the parent and when looking through a list of vaccination side-effects and possible diseases that it can get from it and if my child doesnt take it well...oops he dies".
So because he doesnt want to make disservice to the world..he vaccinates his child and after that somehow his child dies.

Is that loving father in the wrong? I mean, he only wanted to do what he thought it is best for a mankind afterall?


Like i answered MUTU before...the problem here is you not understanding the other side and you really dont have to. But if you think something is good for you or your mom, father, child...that is okay. You go on and do it.
But try to understand that others have right to have their own opinion on what is good for them.

Do you think some people wont get vaccinated because they just love getting on peoples nerves? No!
the reason is because they think that vaccine is not good for them and there is almost always a good reason behind it.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby RedQueen » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:14 am

These comparisons with diseases caused by drugs or alcohol are totally beside the point. None of them are contagious.

This is the problem I've been having with those freedom of choice advocates for over half a year now. I'm all for freedom of choice, unless your freedom of choice hurts the rights of others. This isn't about the government telling you not to smoke or drink because it's detrimental to your health. This isn't even about the government telling you to fasten your seat belt because it protects your life. I couldn't care less if someone doesn't follow such orders. If they choose to endanger their lives, so be it.

But refusal to wear masks, refusal to follow infection control measures, refusal to vaccinate affects not only you, but also others. Your insistence on your freedom takes away the freedom of others, by threatening their health, their safety.

I'm pretty sure we won't need to force anyone to vaccinate because the winter months will wear people down to the point where a huge majority can't wait to be vaccinated.

The only question for me is which vaccine to prefer. As DD is a scientist, I'd like to hear his opinion. From all I've read, the mRNA vaccines, although a novel technology, are those with the least risks / side effects to be expected. Would you agree?
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