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Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:30 pm

aterford wrote:Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I don't see a lot of people here - if any - advocating for forced vaccinations.

Rather it's just people saying that vaccines are by and large safe and effective and concerns about potential adverse effects of a COVID-vaccine are largely unfounded scaremongering - saying that you *should* get the vaccine and that there's not a lot of legitimate reasons for the majority of persons to *not* do so. But I don't see a lot of people saying you'll be held down and injected against your will.


But there are people that advocate there should be no free will..."for the greater good".

nm462272 wrote:
MUTU wrote:People don't understand that because they want their freedom and liberty and sense of normality they can start a chain reaction that could end up in people dying. How are people OK with possibly committing manslaughter just because they don't care is beyond my understanding. It's extreme selfishness, that's what it is.


Bingo you hit the nail on the head - it's pure selfishness, which unfortunately is becoming more and more of a defining american trait...

When you brand selfishness as FrEeDoM it’s easy to sell lol


Free will is free will. Just because you dont agree with someones choice or view it doesnt mean you should lable him selfish, a murderer etc.
Someone that think that vaccines are more harmful to humans than not...can also lable someone murderer or being selfish for promoting vaccination. But everyone can have their own opinion and views.

aterford wrote:For example: I don't think it's unreasonable for a business to refuse service to a person who cannot provide record of vaccination. If a person believes that not getting a vaccine is the best decision for their health, so be it. If a business-owner believes that refusing service to an unvaccinated person is the best decision for their health (or the health of their patrons!), then they should maintain that right, too. Everyone should have a right to their own health-autonomy, but not in such a way that it negatively impacts that of another. And this can be applied in a number of different situations.


It is not unreasonable. If a business owner decides it is best for him to do that, he has every right to do it. It is his choice and we have to respect it.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:31 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Out of pure academic interest, I'd love to see what literature source it was that made you believe that. I'm a scientist after all so keen to see all the possiblities. Care to share?


I really dont want to go into a debate about what made me believe that. let`s just say I had a bad experience in my private life that made me do some research over the last 10 years. and in the end made me think that side effects caused by a vaccine are more harmful than not. Like I said before this is my opinion and you dont have to agree with me.

What I wanted to point out at the begining was...that there shouldnt be even a debate about free choice when it comes to someone deciding for themselves if they want to take something or not.
I too suspect that certain vaccines have consequences especially those given to toddlers...
But I think that the medical people reason it is better for the common good to have 2% casualty than we have a catastrophic situation. I believe this yes
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:45 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Look at the fucking state of this. MUTU raised argumentative points. And your answer is "sorry, you're wrong, but I can't explain it so you should look it up yourself". How's anyone supposed to trust you? Which bit of MUTU's post is wrong and why?


I am not here to make you trust me and to change your mind. you can believe whatever you want and I am ok with that. I was just trying to point out that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a choice if they want to take something or not. If I say i have my reasons to believe that vaccines are not safe...that is my right and you cant force me to think differently and to just go with "let us all get vaccinated".
You do have a right to have a wrong opinion, what you don't have a right to is to prevent others from calling you out on your wrongness.

To make it even more clear, no one has suggested physically forcing you to get vaccinated. That's a scapegoat. But you don't get to play victim a prevent us from shaming you for not doing so.

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:46 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Cause of ppl who were never vaccinated for certain viruses , we seeing again viruses which were almost extinct...

Polio , tb, german measles are all back

According to a report the most stubborn for vaccines are the Italians, Romanians and the French...

Then you have the thousands of Africans and SE Asians coming over to add more ingredients to the cocktail ...

Over here it is the law... all children are to be vaccinated ...

The T.B vaccines were stopped years ago (I had it in 1998) now cause of the latter including the Europeans who are making Malta their home we had to start giving it again.
We just can't have a Ramsej post that doesn't include at least a tiny bit of xenophobia, can we? XD

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:08 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:You do have a right to have a wrong opinion, what you don't have a right to is to prevent others from calling you out on your wrongness.

To make it even more clear, no one has suggested physically forcing you to get vaccinated. That's a scapegoat. But you don't get to play victim a prevent us from shaming you for not doing so.


This is some "high-school-bully" talk right there.

So If I think that gays are wrong and I cant understand how they can even think about being attractive to men instead of beautiful women. I have every right shaming him and he does not get to play victim from me shaming him. just because I am too arrogant not to even try understanding that everyone has different look on things, even if I have no idea why.

Assuming someone is wrong on something and then attacking and shaming him for his opinion just because you dont agree with it...what do u call that?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:15 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Melo-dramatic. Since when does taking a vaccine = relinquishing freedom? Grow up Indoctrinated? If your basis for any argument is that the other side is indoctrinated, then you’re probably the person who has problems with someone not agreeing with you no? Must be a pretty sorry mindset to have.

I’ve also made a point that taking a vaccine protects others more than yourself, so... I guess why are you so scared of protecting others? No one’s forcing you to, but I’m very entitled to believe that you’re incredibly selfish so keep at it, I’m just not agreeing with you


It does affect someone`s freedom if you force him to take the vaccine.

Just to be clear I am not forcing my views on anyone and dont force anyone to agree with me. I am just saying that you shouldnt be doing that. and noone should have a problem with someone taking or not taking a vaccine.
Like I said. If someone decides to take a vaccine. i am OK with that. Your body, your life...your choice. But it is not normal to force someone else to do something against their own will.

OK I agree. If you think that you should take the vaccine to protect yourself and others. you should take it. But if I decide that I dont want that "protection" for myself...you dont have the right to force me into doing it.
Why does a person need protection if they are already protected by a vaccine? Dont turn this around and play the "being-selfish-card" on me.
Well... Meh... Objectively, the novel Coronavirus is not THAT lethal, albeit it seems to make it hard to fully recover... But with other, more lethal diseases, I think the government should definitely have the right to force you... Cause not everybody has said choice you know... There are people who simply cannot get vaccinated and it is no small amount...

All that to say: I see your point and I can partly agree - but not universally...
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby #12 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:27 pm

So seeing as Dumbledore is a scientist and others have expressed their views as well: you will all take it?

I am far from being anti-vaccine but I WAS a little skeptical about this one... There’s money to be made here and it went down really fast... So I wanted to wait a little... However... I also see it as the only way out of this shit - and safety standards are pretty high, especially in the EU... So I guess my concerns aren’t too serious?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:32 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
nm462272 wrote:Also, if people refuse to be vaccinated against Corona (excluding people who cannot be vaccinated), then they should be refused treatment if they get it.


Okay I get your view.

So let's just take your view and mirror it.

if a person gets vaccinated (current vaccinations) they should be refused treatment for...

-Snipped a long list of medical words you probably don't understand-

Because these reactions and diseases are listed right on the vaccine package as possible side effects.

The people who are likely to get these side effects are not likely to receive vaccines in the first place. These people have pre-exisitng conditions that would have been detected early on so they can't be recommended to take vaccines, because they're likely to get these side effects. So they're vulnerable to a vaccine, and even more vulnerable to the disease. Therefore they rely on others to not transmit the disease to them.

You want to be understood, yet you keep insisting on not understanding that particular point, and then you cry bully? Please.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Fénix » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:35 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Look at the fucking state of this. MUTU raised argumentative points. And your answer is "sorry, you're wrong, but I can't explain it so you should look it up yourself". How's anyone supposed to trust you? Which bit of MUTU's post is wrong and why?


I am not here to make you trust me and to change your mind. you can believe whatever you want and I am ok with that. I was just trying to point out that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a choice if they want to take something or not. If I say i have my reasons to believe that vaccines are not safe...that is my right and you cant force me to think differently and to just go with "let us all get vaccinated".
You do have a right to have a wrong opinion, what you don't have a right to is to prevent others from calling you out on your wrongness.

To make it even more clear, no one has suggested physically forcing you to get vaccinated. That's a scapegoat. But you don't get to play victim a prevent us from shaming you for not doing so.

Now just use your first sentence that you replied to @Scholl and see how it feels like and put others who call you out on your wrongness, @Punk. Now that's a definition of a true, free world. :D
Mass, cattle still cannot judge to free will and call out on selfishness and that's why Western world is completely fucked up for half a century.
In terms "free will" and "free world" there's nothing universal except few things, we all get born and die, water, light(Sun) and plants are necessary and that's it.

So in spirit of a dialogue, tolerance, diversity, @Scholl is absolutely right about what he is saying and it's up to everyone to respect what he says. Call him out wrong or right is irrelevant here.
He believes in freedom, free choice and in something what is right to him and it doesn't have to be right, normal or whatever for you, me, @MUTU, etc. :) Interpretation depends on each individual, so yes, it's sooooooooo infinite.

You all guys are entering deep philosophy, moral, ethics and religion here and are going to wide and deep. :mrgreen:


ramsej84 wrote:Cause of ppl who were never vaccinated for certain viruses , we seeing again viruses which were almost extinct...

This is absolutely true.

I remember in the past 2 years how I laughed damn hard about this (anti)vaccination drama in Croatia where diseases which were, as you just said, practically extincted, parents started not to send their children at all on vaccination, call for choice on media and TV news and children got infected and sick from something that we only read and heard in history classes and TV dokus as a past. :lol: :lol:

The 'famous' politician Ivan Pernar was the loudest in Croatia with anti-vaccine propaganda, a guy who is also a vegan/vegetarian and has a lot of ridiculous copy/paste, forum/Wikipedia/David Icke, etc. views, facts and stories about many political, social, religious and other topics. :) He never returned to the parliament with his show, but he got big money, secured his pension and privileges that voters gave him, now he is back to his previous days, nobody 'bought' his stuff again.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:36 pm

#12 wrote:So seeing as Dumbledore is a scientist and others have expressed their views as well: you will all take it?

I am far from being anti-vaccine but I WAS a little skeptical about this one... There’s money to be made here and it went down really fast... So I wanted to wait a little... However... I also see it as the only way out of this shit - and safety standards are pretty high, especially in the EU... So I guess my concerns aren’t too serious?

If it's from Pfizer, Moderna or any of the other pharma giants and it was released commercially, yes sure. I volunteered for a test myself but didn't pass screening.

Also now that you mention money, I have a conspiracy theory which would probably be fascinating to discuss, but probably not now.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:40 pm

Fénix wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7"]Look at the fucking state of this. MUTU raised argumentative points. And your answer is "sorry, you're wrong, but I can't explain it so you should look it up yourself". How's anyone supposed to trust you? Which bit of MUTU's post is wrong and why?


I am not here to make you trust me and to change your mind. you can believe whatever you want and I am ok with that. I was just trying to point out that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a choice if they want to take something or not. If I say i have my reasons to believe that vaccines are not safe...that is my right and you cant force me to think differently and to just go with "let us all get vaccinated".
You do have a right to have a wrong opinion, what you don't have a right to is to prevent others from calling you out on your wrongness.

To make it even more clear, no one has suggested physically forcing you to get vaccinated. That's a scapegoat. But you don't get to play victim a prevent us from shaming you for not doing so.

Now just use your first sentence that you replied to @Scholl and see how it feels like and put others who call you out on your wrongness, @Punk. Now that's a definition of a true, free world. :D
Mass, cattle still cannot judge to free will and call out on selfishness and that's why Western world is completely fucked up for half a century.
In terms "free will" and "free world" there's nothing universal except few things, we all get born and die, water, light(Sun) and plants are necessary and that's it.

So in spirit of a dialogue, tolerance, diversity, @Scholl is absolutely right about what he is saying and it's up to everyone to respect what he says. Call him out wrong or right is irrelevant here.
He believes in freedom, free choice and in something what is right to him and it doesn't have to be right, normal or whatever for you, me, @MUTU, etc. :) Interpretation depends on each individual, so yes, it's sooooooooo infinite.

You all guys are entering deep philosophy, moral, ethics and religion here and are going to wide and deep. :mrgreen:


[quote="ramsej84 wrote:Cause of ppl who were never vaccinated for certain viruses , we seeing again viruses which were almost extinct...

This is absolutely true.

I remember in the past 2 years how I laughed damn hard about this (anti)vaccination drama in Croatia where diseases which were, as you just said, practically extincted, parents started not to send their children at all on vaccination, call for choice on media and TV news and children got infected and sick from something that we only read and heard in history classes and TV dokus as a past.

The 'famous' politician Ivan Pernar was the loudest in Croatia with anti-vaccine propaganda, a guy who is also a vegan/vegetarian and has a lot of ridiculous copy/paste, forum/Wikipedia/David Icke, etc. views, facts and stories about many political, social, religious and other topics. :) He never returned to the parliament with his show, but he got big money, secured his pension and privileges that voters gave him, now he is back to his previous days, nobody 'bought' his stuff again.[/quote]I seriously have no clue what your first three paragraphs or so meant.

EDIT: NOT THOSE, the quoting went mad. I meant Fenix's comments @ me

If you meant the incident when you were being sexist and I called you out your misogynism, resulting in you using a BANHAMMER on me, I don't think that is in any way comparable to us calling out Scholl for refusing modern medicine in favor of Youtube conspiracies.

Then there was something about some sheep

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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:43 pm

#12 wrote:Well... Meh... Objectively, the novel Coronavirus is not THAT lethal, albeit it seems to make it hard to fully recover... But with other, more lethal diseases, I think the government should definitely have the right to force you... Cause not everybody has said choice you know... There are people who simply cannot get vaccinated and it is no small amount...

All that to say: I see your point and I can partly agree - but not universally...


I can see from where you are coming and probably a lot of people think like that. i wont say it is wrong to assume it is good to protect other people that are more exposed to something...but...

where does forcing someone end? how can a government decide to force someone to do something against their will? that is everything and even worse than what we were tought about communism, fascism, dictatorship etc...

A lot of people die from drinking, smoking, bad eating habits. Do I think a government should prohibit alcohol, tobacco etc... YES. it would be great for us and our healt and it would save us billions for our health system. Does it mean that our government has a right to force everyone not to do it and prohibit everything. NO.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:48 pm

There's literally no one here advocating for forcing vaccines. You butted in and over-reacted, I mean bloody hell. Take a chamomile.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:51 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:The people who are likely to get these side effects are not likely to receive vaccines in the first place. These people have pre-exisitng conditions that would have been detected early on so they can't be recommended to take vaccines, because they're likely to get these side effects. So they're vulnerable to a vaccine, and even more vulnerable to the disease. Therefore they rely on others to not transmit the disease to them.

You want to be understood, yet you keep insisting on not understanding that particular point, and then you cry bully? Please.


These side effects are mostly evident with children because most of vaccines are for children from almost right after they are born. And almost every child gets vaccinated. So does it mean that we should refuse treatment to every child that gets these side effects or diseases?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:52 pm

No, why should we?
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