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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:52 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:Why does a person need protection if they are already protected by a vaccine? Dont turn this around and play the "being-selfish-card" on me.

Are you really that shallow? I've made a point that some people will NEVER be able to take vaccines. Mostly these are the physiologically vulnerable, their bodies might have auto-immune condition and/or more prone to sepsis if they get exposed to a vaccine and could react fatally. These are the people who absolutely needs protection, by having others around them vaccinated.

There are also people, like you, who will always refuse to take it for whatever reason, and you're the one who needs the protection from others around you who will be vaccinated by not allowing the disease to transmit to you via others.

It's clear these things are beyond your comprehension, yet you have the nerve to tell MUTU that he's wrong by not putting forward any argument whatsoever. Cringeworthy.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:13 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:the only thing that’s remotely worrying is the relatively small volume of tests but that concern will always be there in the case of sample testing.


On the contrary, I think the number is very large. Studies of medical products usually have hundreds of participants, not tens of thousands. Granted, we’re talking about a vaccine that will be administered to hundreds of millions here, a much larger target population than for most medicines, but still.

Yes you're right, but I was talking more about the demographic variance - for a global virus, it could've been better although I'd still take it.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:14 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:Why does a person need protection if they are already protected by a vaccine? Dont turn this around and play the "being-selfish-card" on me.


Perhaps phrase it another way: "Why should someone wear a seatbelt when their car already has an airbag?"
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:49 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Look at the fucking state of this. MUTU raised argumentative points. And your answer is "sorry, you're wrong, but I can't explain it so you should look it up yourself". How's anyone supposed to trust you? Which bit of MUTU's post is wrong and why?


I am not here to make you trust me and to change your mind. you can believe whatever you want and I am ok with that. I was just trying to point out that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a choice if they want to take something or not. If I say i have my reasons to believe that vaccines are not safe...that is my right and you cant force me to think differently and to just go with "let us all get vaccinated".
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:07 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Are you really that shallow? I've made a point that some people will NEVER be able to take vaccines. Mostly these are the physiologically vulnerable, their bodies might have auto-immune condition and/or more prone to sepsis if they get exposed to a vaccine and could react fatally. These are the people who absolutely needs protection, by having others around them vaccinated.


You have a different perspective on this matter. i wont go into details. but let`s just say we have different views on vaccines. I have done my research and you have your own research and opinion. I respect that.

But if a person believes that a certain vaccine is not good for their health. And another person believes that a vaccine is good for them.
And one person decides that it wont put something into their body that harms them...the other person doesnt have the right to force someone to do something with their body that they dont want to even if they think it will make them even more immune to a certain virus.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:10 pm

Cause of ppl who were never vaccinated for certain viruses , we seeing again viruses which were almost extinct...

Polio , tb, german measles are all back

According to a report the most stubborn for vaccines are the Italians, Romanians and the French...

Then you have the thousands of Africans and SE Asians coming over to add more ingredients to the cocktail ...

Over here it is the law... all children are to be vaccinated ...

The T.B vaccines were stopped years ago (I had it in 1998) now cause of the latter including the Europeans who are making Malta their home we had to start giving it again.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:15 pm

Hear ,hear

Fearne, Charmaine Gauci face judicial protest for 'causing COVID-19 panic'



https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/ ... nic.832429
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:19 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Are you really that shallow? I've made a point that some people will NEVER be able to take vaccines. Mostly these are the physiologically vulnerable, their bodies might have auto-immune condition and/or more prone to sepsis if they get exposed to a vaccine and could react fatally. These are the people who absolutely needs protection, by having others around them vaccinated.


You have a different perspective on this matter. i wont go into details. but let`s just say we have different views on vaccines. I have done my research and you have your own research and opinion. I respect that.

But if a person believes that a certain vaccine is not good for their health. And another person believes that a vaccine is good for them.
And one person decides that it wont put something into their body that harms them...the other person doesnt have the right to force someone to do something with their body that they dont want to even if they think it will make them even more immune to a certain virus.

Out of pure academic interest, I'd love to see what literature source it was that made you believe that. I'm a scientist after all so keen to see all the possiblities. Care to share?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:19 pm

ramsej84 wrote:According to a report the most stubborn for vaccines are the Italians, Romanians and the French...


This is exactly what I was talking about. if you try and see the other side and how they think...it should be something like this...

"according to a report Italians, Romanians and the French are mostly the ones that dont want to be forced to vaccinate".


ramsej84 wrote:Over here it is the law... all children are to be vaccinated ...


If let's say this covid vaccine comes out and someone healthy decides to not take it. would you approve of the law to force vaccinate every citizen?
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:32 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Out of pure academic interest, I'd love to see what literature source it was that made you believe that. I'm a scientist after all so keen to see all the possiblities. Care to share?


I really dont want to go into a debate about what made me believe that. let`s just say I had a bad experience in my private life that made me do some research over the last 10 years. and in the end made me think that side effects caused by a vaccine are more harmful than not. Like I said before this is my opinion and you dont have to agree with me.

What I wanted to point out at the begining was...that there shouldnt be even a debate about free choice when it comes to someone deciding for themselves if they want to take something or not.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby nm462272 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:43 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Out of pure academic interest, I'd love to see what literature source it was that made you believe that. I'm a scientist after all so keen to see all the possiblities. Care to share?


I really dont want to go into a debate about what made me believe that. let`s just say I had a bad experience in my private life that made me do some research over the last 10 years. and in the end made me think that side effects caused by a vaccine are more harmful than not. Like I said before this is my opinion and you dont have to agree with me.

What I wanted to point out at the begining was...that there shouldnt be even a debate about free choice when it comes to someone deciding for themselves if they want to take something or not.


I won't comment on not providing any academic studies, but vaccines strive to prevent and/or eradicate terrible diseases for humanity as a whole... Any individual side effects pale in comparison to that.

Also, if people refuse to be vaccinated against Corona (excluding people who cannot be vaccinated), then they should be refused treatment if they get it.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:55 pm

nm462272 wrote:I won't comment on not providing any academic studies, but vaccines strive to prevent and/or eradicate terrible diseases for humanity as a whole... Any individual side effects pale in comparison to that.


What I think or what you think about vaccines is not important now. Let's just agree to disagree about if vaccines are harmful or good for you.

the problem with all of this is that there are 2 sides...but one side is trying to force the other side to inject something (that they think is harmful to them) into their own bodies.

In my view, the issue really isn’t one of trying to establish whether or not vaccines work as a prerequisite for mandating them. Rather, it’s about the perceived moral justification behind forcing any individual against their will to receive a controversial medical treatment that comes with known health risks.

Every human being should have the freedom to reject vaccination or any other invasive medical procedure for any reason they choose, whether it be safety concerns, conscientious objection, or even just a fear of needles – your body is your own, after all.


What I was trying to say...that this is so wrong on so many levels. I was defending the freedom of choice when it comes to your health.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:10 pm

nm462272 wrote:Also, if people refuse to be vaccinated against Corona (excluding people who cannot be vaccinated), then they should be refused treatment if they get it.


Okay I get your view.

So let's just take your view and mirror it.

if a person gets vaccinated (current vaccinations) they should be refused treatment for...

Blood and lymphatic system disorders
Immune system disorders
myocardium
nervous system disorders
convulsions, seizures, and febrile seizures
encephalitis (brain swelling)
facial palsy
sudden infant death (SIDS)
meningitis
paralysis
anaphylactic shock
skin and tissue disorders, eczema
lower respiratory infections
cerebrovascular accident
transverse myelitis
Guillain-Barré syndrome
aseptic meningitis
pneumonia
ringing in the ears
multiple sclerosis
myelitis including transverse myelitis
peripheral neuropathy
herpes zoster
migraines
neurological syndromes
chronic arthritis
hearing loss
rheumatoid arthritis
vasculitis
neuropathy
vaccine-strain versions of chicken pox, measles, mumps, polio, influenza, meningitis, yellow fever, and pertussis.
chromosomal changes leading to mutations
leukemia and lymphomas
auto-immunity
diabetes
asthma
food allergies
nervous system changes
autism
demyelination
epilepsy
unexplained diseases
paralytic poliomyelitis

Because these reactions and diseases are listed right on the vaccine package as possible side effects.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby aterford » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:12 pm

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I don't see a lot of people here - if any - advocating for forced vaccinations.

Rather it's just people saying that vaccines are by and large safe and effective and concerns about potential adverse effects of a COVID-vaccine are largely unfounded scaremongering - saying that you *should* get the vaccine and that there's not a lot of legitimate reasons for the majority of persons to *not* do so. But I don't see a lot of people saying you'll be held down and injected against your will.

I do think there's a case to be made however that one's bodily autonomy should not extend so far as to infringe upon another's. It's true that everyone should have the right to make their own decisions regarding their healthcare. Everyone should maintain the right to be able to choose to do what they believe is best for their health (and/or that of their children, etc). But we also must understand that actions have consequences and exercising 'rights' often requires accepting responsibility, too.

For example: I don't think it's unreasonable for a business to refuse service to a person who cannot provide record of vaccination. If a person believes that not getting a vaccine is the best decision for their health, so be it. If a business-owner believes that refusing service to an unvaccinated person is the best decision for their health (or the health of their patrons!), then they should maintain that right, too. Everyone should have a right to their own health-autonomy, but not in such a way that it negatively impacts that of another. And this can be applied in a number of different situations.
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Re: Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:27 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:According to a report the most stubborn for vaccines are the Italians, Romanians and the French...


This is exactly what I was talking about. if you try and see the other side and how they think...it should be something like this...

"according to a report Italians, Romanians and the French are mostly the ones that dont want to be forced to vaccinate".


ramsej84 wrote:Over here it is the law... all children are to be vaccinated ...


If let's say this covid vaccine comes out and someone healthy decides to not take it. would you approve of the law to force vaccinate every citizen?
I don't think that it will be forced...
I am / was still uncertain tbh...

Personally I only had the seasonal vaccine once... and it was in fall 2012- and I can assure you that I had quite a number of colds although never the flu thank God.

Re the other viruses it is not nice to have the Polio and tb back cause of People coming in ...

Imo those coming from the eu and are not vaccinated for certain viruses should not be allowed in unless they take it.
As for the migrants that is another story , they can be vaccinated upon arriving
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