FC Bayern Forum

For once I must disagree with Badger, though he was a bit unconvincing for a while under Pep but we did start looking better when he first featured in Pep's 343 vs BvB. I know it is wishful thinking expecting to be ready to play Barca but if he is fit it would be hard to keep him on the bench.

Martinez, in three "big games" under Pep (Euro Super Cup v Chelski, first league encounter with Dortmund, Pokal final with Dortmund) was the difference maker. The real issue is that Pep hasn't had enough time to build around him.

Firefox1234 wrote:For once I must disagree with Badger, though he was a bit unconvincing for a while under Pep but we did start looking better when he first featured in Pep's 343 vs BvB. I know it is wishful thinking expecting to be ready to play Barca but if he is fit it would be hard to keep him on the bench.

I like Martinez, and am happy to be wrong about his role and contributions to the team.

Last season, Pep’s lengthy attempts to play 4-1-4-1 with a high back line placed extra demands on the defensive midfield and the central defenders. It needed, among other things, a very high standard of vision, reaction time and general pace. Players who had good levels of these skills, and were quite effective in other systems, were being stretched by these demands. Martinez was particularly exposed in all this, his many other skills being overshadowed as fast counters made him look half the player he’d been the previous season. (He wasn’t the only one.) I’d still maintain that Martinez is not the player for defensive midfield in 4-1-4-1.

Towards the end of last season, and very often this season, Pep has switched to 3 at the back (which morphs into 5 at the back, under attack). The stats speak for themselves; Bayern are on target for records in least goals conceded, most clean sheets, etc. Martinez has looked better in his 1-2 games in that system, playing in the central defence. I think he may recover his status as a player, if he is employed in the back three. But will his introduction to the back three be any significant improvement, even at his best, over the Benatia-Boating-Badstuber-Alaba permutations we’ve seen during the season? I really don’t think so. In the injury crisis, playing him instead of Dante may be an improvement, but that’s about it.

Will he be reintroduced as a defensive midfielder in the current system? Will he shine there? I think we can hardly tell, as there is not much evidence yet that he could protect the high back line that Pep still plays with, against a fast countering team. He may do, but it is uncharted territory as yet. Indeed, tonight we have, in Borussia Dortmund, a fast countering team – and a very hungry one too – so it may be a great test to see what Pep has in mind for Martinez and how he fares.

Between Bundesliga, Champions League and DFB Pokal, Javi Martínez has started 20 matches (out of 96) so far under Pep Guardiola. With just above one-fifth of matches started in these 3 main competitions, last of which being 17th May 2014, almost a year ago, don't you think we're being somewhat unfair towards Martínez? He's hardly had a chance to prove himself under Guardiola's tactics.

Pep's central buildup maker doubles as the only and last line of defense in counters. In possession he becomes a key central playmaker with nothing but an ocean Between him and the keeper so He has to be as fast as Bale, as precise as Gustavo and as good a tackler as Motta. This is why Bielsa moves CDM backwards.

That is one key position you cannot place anything but the best and only your Boatengs will do. Martinez has already proven himself there. Let's see what happens, maybe he will break Dortmund's midfield in two, or three, again.

MUTU wrote:Between Bundesliga, Champions League and DFB Pokal, Javi Martínez has started 20 matches (out of 96) so far under Pep Guardiola. With just above one-fifth of matches started in these 3 main competitions, last of which being 17th May 2014, almost a year ago, don't you think we're being somewhat unfair towards Martínez? He's hardly had a chance to prove himself under Guardiola's tactics.

LOL. I like the diplomatic “we” in “we’re being somewhat unfair”, as I think I’m the only real dissenter on the subject of his return. As I mentioned earlier, I’m happy to be wrong on this one. And I’m only in the process of forming my conclusions, rather than in the position where they’re completely formed.

That said, I suppose I’d be a little surprised if he became a success in midfield in Pep’s system. My main hope is that he’d become a reliable upgrade on Dante in central defence, enabling Bayern to avoid the purchase of a new central defender for next season. I think that that outcome is quite possible.

As an aside: Transfermarkt have listed him for months as one of the most likely players to be transferred next by Bayern; I really hope that that doesn’t happen.

Badger wrote:LOL. I like the diplomatic “we” in “we’re being somewhat unfair”, as I think I’m the only real dissenter on the subject of his return.

Did I make it so obvious?

Anyway, just some food for thought: Javi Martínez's last full match for Bayern was the DFB Pokal final, and he was given the highest possible rating by kicker (a 1, which is equivalent to a 10/10).

Badger wrote:

MUTU wrote:Between Bundesliga, Champions League and DFB Pokal, Javi Martínez has started 20 matches (out of 96) so far under Pep Guardiola. With just above one-fifth of matches started in these 3 main competitions, last of which being 17th May 2014, almost a year ago, don't you think we're being somewhat unfair towards Martínez? He's hardly had a chance to prove himself under Guardiola's tactics.

LOL. I like the diplomatic “we” in “we’re being somewhat unfair”, as I think I’m the only real dissenter on the subject of his return. As I mentioned earlier, I’m happy to be wrong on this one. And I’m only in the process of forming my conclusions, rather than in the position where they’re completely formed.

That said, I suppose I’d be a little surprised if he became a success in midfield in Pep’s system. My main hope is that he’d become a reliable upgrade on Dante in central defence, enabling Bayern to avoid the purchase of a new central defender for next season. I think that that outcome is quite possible.

As an aside: Transfermarkt have listed him for months as one of the most likely players to be transferred next by Bayern; I really hope that that doesn’t happen.

That is one thing I will never understand. I'm reading Pep Confidential and whenever Javi is mentioned, it seems very clear to me that Javi is very valued by Pep. I mean for one in a back 3, the middle CB is the most important role, and he didn't give it to Boateng nor Dante, he gave it to Javi and in important games too.

Not only that but it seems pretty clear that if it were not for Javi's lengthy injuries over the last two seasons, he would've been a starter under Pep.

Taking direct quotes from the book here:

[In regards to the Madrid game] "To add to their woes, Javi Martínez – who should have been a starter – was suffering from a bout of gastroenteritis which had caused him to lose almost four kilos in one weekend."

[In regards to the 2 Madrid games]"It is tempting to reflect on how different the outcome might have been had Javi Martínez been fit enough for the entirety of both home and away games."

[after his great game vs. BVB in the Pokal final] ‘He’s designed my perfect position. Finally I’ve got the right position in the right system which allows me to give my very best’

sws wrote:
[In regards to the Madrid game] "To add to their woes, Javi Martínez – who should have been a starter – was suffering from a bout of gastroenteritis which had caused him to lose almost four kilos in one weekend."

[In regards to the 2 Madrid games]"It is tempting to reflect on how different the outcome might have been had Javi Martínez been fit enough for the entirety of both home and away games."

[after his great game vs. BVB in the Pokal final] ‘He’s designed my perfect position. Finally I’ve got the right position in the right system which allows me to give my very best’

Heh, that's pretty damning evidence!

He wont play as a deep lying playmaker like Xabi or sometimes Lahm does.
We could see that last season when Lahm, Kroos or even Thiago played there...Martinez was playing in more attacking role in midfield.

This midfield role is somehow a mistery to me. It seems that Pep always plays a man who can defend in that position. Martinez [few games last season], Lahm in most games, Rode and even Schweini played there.
And for some reason that position is less influental than every other midfield and attacking position in our tactics. It is like playing in shadows. A lot more attacking moves and creativity goes through other AMC [left sided one].
Maybe that was introduced so Robben has more space to come into space while that right ACM drops deeper.
Still a mistery...but will figure it out Just shows Pep is complicated

................CF...............
AML.....AMC....AMC....AMR
...............CM...............
LB.......CB.....CB.........RB

Martinez will play in a 3 man backline. He was a real monster in that position.
But the problem is we only play 3 man backline against counter-attacking teams. So I doubt we will play it against Barcelona.

Not in the line-up or substitutes... I wonder what's up.

I think it's pretty obvious that the reason he was on the bench on the weekend to begin with was the extent of our injury situation at that point. We probably just needed another body on the bench and at that point he was among the few remaining options who might be used in case of an emergency but otherwise unused. Not surprised actually that he's not participating against Dortmund.

where is martinez ? any updates ?

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Yeah but they said he would get minutes against BVB but he wasn't even on the bench.