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[2020-10-07] Germany vs Turkey

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:45 pm

Germany will win
No votes
It will end in a draw
No votes
Turkey will win
No votes
Total votes : 0

Re: [2020-10-07] Germany vs Turkey

Postby aterford » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:33 pm

It may not be JUST on Low, but as I've said before I believe if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. And for me it is very, very clear that Jogi is not part of the solution.

And of course it's hard to evaluate players so objectively when the management is so poor. Many of us were convinced that our squad wasn't good enough in 2017-2018 and that we needed to replace many players and many were past it and we just didn't have the players to compete at the top level. Of course, Jupp stepped in and pretty much destroyed that narrative. And the same was largely true just this past year: under Kovac we were also hearing that our squad wasn't good enough and our transfer window was an utter disaster and with the players we had we couldn't be competitive, even if Kovac was poor....and again - Flick comes in and we're treble-winners with that same squad. Perhaps those are just two exceptions but I think it's fair to say that good management has a tendency to make poor players look better and bad management can cause you to think that good players are not good enough.

But, at this point, it has to be worth trying, no? It's the same case on the club level: it's a lot easier to replace a manager than it is to replace an entire squad. For better or worse - we have the players we have. Not a ton can be done to change that, but you certainly can easily change the one in charge of them.

Bottom line: right now this "class" doesn't look as talented as many who preceded it, but I think it's also painfully obvious that Low is not getting the most out of the resources at his disposal, and that's enough for me.
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Re: [2020-10-07] Germany vs Turkey

Postby #12 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:07 pm

Jorge wrote:I believe it is the coach more than the players, certainly this generation is a few notches below the previous one, but there is a still a decent group of players that if correctly managed can get the the results, for NT having XI stars help but does not necessarily mean that you are going to be successful. You still have a decent starting XI: Neuer, Kimmich, Kroos, Gündoğan, Süle, Koch, Goretzka, Sane, Gnabry, Klostermann, Havertz, Werner, Gosens...these are players that consistently performed at a good level either for important clubs and/or in the top leagues in the world in the last tw years.

Certainly Germany lacks depth, that's why players like Draxler or Rudiger are still important part of the NT; but a good NT coach with a good tactician next to him should be able to get better results out of this group and I do not think that it will take a miracle to go toe to toe with France, The Netherlands or Spain. In this case, Low is as lost as a goat in a movie theater.
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Re: [2020-10-07] Germany vs Turkey

Postby Manchu » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:47 pm

MUTU wrote:To be fair it's not just Loew. I mean OK he retired 3 valid players but then again he doesn't have too many talents coming through. Someone could take over from Loew and maybe get a quick win but once some legends start retiring I don't see many adequate replacements. The new generation is nothing to write home about, other than the attack.

You're buying far too much into Loew's narrative. Although it is true that the team right now is somewhat less talented than it was during the "Golden Generation," it is still absolutely incredible. At the 2014 World Cup, Germany could field a starting 11 which included 8 world class players(Neuer, Hummels, Boateng, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Ozil, Thomas Muller), with Khedira, Howedes, and Klose, despite being good players themselves, being the exception. If Mario Gomez was fit, maybe the NT team could field 9 world class players at the time(I don't count Reus for the purpose of this calculation because of his inability to stay fit and because I don't think he has ever been WC for the NT). So 9 world class players was the absolute limit of that era of the NT, and then you had some good players on the bench(Gotze, Mertesacker, Schürrle).

Nowadays, with the depth of talent available to Germany, it's possible to field a team with 8 world class players(Neuer, Hummels, Sule, Kimmich, Kroos, Muller, Sane, Gnabry), with the main weaknesses being the lack of great fullbacks and the lack of a WC striker. A team like that would also have great players like Boateng, Brandt, Havertz, Goretzka, Werner, and Gundogan sitting on the bench or playing out of position. Even when you take out the three exiles, you still end up with a situation where you can field an 11 with 6 or 7 world class players in it. In fact, even if you take out of all of the players older than 28, you could still field Ter Stegen, Sule, Kimmich, Goretzka, Brandt, Havertz, Sane and Gnabry and have a very strong core of 8 excellent young players.

It is very rare to have a NT which can field 8 world class players at once. Looking at the players the Spain has called up over the last couple international breaks, Spain can't. Belgium can't. Brazil can't. The Netherlands can't. France has an excellent talent pool and an absurd number of young talents developing, yet it could even be argued that they can't quite field an 11 with 8 world class players(by my count Pogba, Varane, Kante, Griezmann, and Mbappe are widely considered to be world class, and it could be argued that Lucas Hernandez, Hugo Lloris, Martial, and Aouar are also world class).

Of course, for the German National Team, the players between 23 and 26 are very talented, but there seems to be a drought of talent between 20 and 23. But that's primarily a long term concern, and some young players might still surprise people. Also, for those with memories, there was quite an age gap between the Kroos, Muller, Ozil Golden Generation and the current "Silver Generation" of Kimmich, Goretzka, Sane, Brandt, Sule etc., with Gotze being the only player in the middle.
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