FC Bayern Forum

Commodore, listen mate. I really respect you and you have been an asset to this forum in these few weeks you've been here. Sometimes you bring up really interesting points and I usually love reading your posts.

I understand that you get frustrated when someone criticizes the team, but it's just as frustrating to see posts refusing the criticize anything even when criticism is justified. To say that some here are not true supporters just because they criticize something or want a change in the coaching staff is unjust. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that whatever we do we are always perfect, and whenever something goes wrong it is because of luck. Leave that to the Man United and Real Madrid fans.

I'm going to move away from Germany and talk about Bayern here. We may be close to perfect at the moment, but mistakes will always be made every now and then. If someone criticizes these mistakes, that doesn't mean that the team or a particular player is bad, but that something was done which should be noted so that it can be avoided in the future. However close we might be, fooling ourselves into thinking we're perfect will get us nowhere. That's exactly what our board (actually it was more Van Gaal, but point still stands) did in 2010, and I don't think anyone needs to be reminded what the consequence of that was in the following season.

Don't misunderstand me please (or misinterpret what I'm saying).

Let's start with this quote of my post from yesterday:

Commodore wrote:P.S. Lots of shit was utter shit today in the past half hour of the game, and I'm not trying to silence critique. I'll repeat, though, talking about "six years of failure" is utter disrespect and how the f*ck dare you?

I didn't post any of my criticism of the team's performance yesterday, because I was so riled up about the way some "supporters" (and I refuse to not put that is quotes) worded their "criticism" (again, quotes fully justified).

I disagree with Quaazi on a lot of points, one of which being Joachim Löw (even though I'm right now a bit on the fence regarding this issue, and might flip soon), but if you want to know what I understand by constructive criticism, go ahead and read his posts.
If you want to know what I do not understand by that, but rather think it's uncalled for hatred and disrespect, please refer to the guys' posts I addressed in this and other threads on the matter.

EDIT: That excludes AvatarX. He doesn't spew hatred.

We must also remember that the combination of supporting Bayern and Germany (which makes up the majority of the users here) has been the most frustrating combo for football supporters in the modern times. No other combination had as many "almost-wins" and it gets on your nerves. Bayern+Germany losing finals has become the latest joke at work now.

Yes, sometimes we expect Bayern to win. When you're favourite to win a match and you don't, then it's a disappointment. Italy can be proud of themselves: in the last tournament they did better than what was expected, so they can still be proud despite being thrashed in the final. On the other hand, Germany were co-favourites and did worse than what was expected of them, so the criticism isn't unmerited.

I'm sure if we had the forum up and running in 2002, nobody would have criticized the players after losing the 2002 World Cup final: with the squad Germany had, they did far more than what was expected of them, so they would have been spared by the critics.

I became a Germany fan after watching them play for the first time ever, the 1974 World Cup final (You can do the math, I am probably older than most here) Since them, I have watched pretty much every Germany game that was available where I was. Since 1978 I have not missed a Germany WC game, and since 1988 I have not missed a single EURO game. In the last 10-15 years I seldom missed a qualifier.

I can tell you one thing: never before Germany had a pléyade of players like this generation, maybe the early 70’s generation only come close. True for many that one is superior, specially stronger across the board but they reached a mythical dimension because of results (they won), otherwise we would be saying these players are more talented and this bench deeper. So why results are not being delivered and do not be surprised if Brazil 2014 is another fiasco?

Simple: mentality. As many pointed out here, past generation of German players did not have the multidimensional talent of today’s players but they had that never-die attitude, a computerized tactical discipline that no matter what you could not write them off. A Mexican journalist put it the right way after the 1986 quarter final: “They have specific weight, playing good or bad they can win any game, against anyone”

Today’s players are flashy, talented, fun to watch but they lack mental strength, they can put up a show of artistic passes, goals and dribbling but they look immature and naïve, shaky when a tough team decides to go tough. I mentioned that here after losing to Italy: the whole German team committed 13 fouls in 90 minutes, could somebody give at least a little push to an Italian?

Now here comes the question: how do you fix it? How does this team find its winning ways that if it falls you are left with the feeling they did not screw it but they put up a fight and things did not go their way because that’s the nature of football?

1) It might be time to revisit the coaching staff, maybe Low does not have to step down but he needs to reshape his assistants. Factors like motivation, tactical awareness, conditioning, circumstantial adaptation to different game plans, are big contributors of recent shortcomings. Typically, the players do not blow out a 4 goal lead, poor coaching does.
2) Leadership: We all heard it before, you can have a vocal leader on the field or another that leads by example. Lahm is the later but Germany was successful when it had the former. Is it time to replace Lahm as team’s captain? We had some taste of Bastian in the role only last week and the team did not blink, for some reason the same team 4 days later fell sleep.

I agree with most of Jorge's post. I think the following sums up my opinion:

Jorge wrote:the whole German team committed 13 fouls in 90 minutes, could somebody give at least a little push to an Italian?

Commodore wrote:He's just wrong

I wish I am man, really. I would like to see this blessed (at least from the talent point of view) generation of players win something eventually, probably in the expense of some dark horses of ours (namely Italy and -lately- Spain), cause despite what would I or you or anyone say, history is written by winners ...

The one thing that Löw has to learn first and foremost is to react properly to changes of the gameflow.

Yes, we had a lot of injured players yesterday, but I'd really love to hear his explanation and his reasoning for the Müller-Götze sub. I mean, what purpose was it supposed to serve?

Commodore wrote:The one thing that Löw has to learn first and foremost is to react properly to changes of the gameflow.

Yes, we had a lot of injured players yesterday, but I'd really love to hear his explanation and his reasoning for the Müller-Götze sub. I mean, what purpose was it supposed to serve?

Bierhoff actually talked about this sub
He said that goetze is pretty good at holding the ball
So he can keep the ball till it ends

And yes,it turned out to be the ideal substitution (sarcasm)

Jorge wrote:I can tell you one thing: never before Germany had a pléyade of players like this generation, maybe the early 70’s generation only come close. True for many that one is superior, specially stronger across the board but they reached a mythical dimension because of results (they won), otherwise we would be saying these players are more talented and this bench deeper. So why results are not being delivered and do not be surprised if Brazil 2014 is another fiasco?

Simple: mentality. As many pointed out here, past generation of German players did not have the multidimensional talent of today’s players but they had that never-die attitude, a computerized tactical discipline that no matter what you could not write them off. A Mexican journalist put it the right way after the 1986 quarter final: “They have specific weight, playing good or bad they can win any game, against anyone”

Today’s players are flashy, talented, fun to watch but they lack mental strength, they can put up a show of artistic passes, goals and dribbling but they look immature and naïve, shaky when a tough team decides to go tough. I mentioned that here after losing to Italy: the whole German team committed 13 fouls in 90 minutes, could somebody give at least a little push to an Italian?

Here lie all the answers. I can't agree more with you mister.

Great post and excellent observation. Golden 70' were fantastic, but these guys are so talented, they've got fantastic tehnical skills, speed, conditions for work and improvement, simply said, everything except result.

I can agree in everything with you, even with this leadership. Besides, I think that Germany captain doesn't need not to be a Bayern player? Where that come from?

Only where I can disagree is Löw. I think that DFB should consider about Löw's position or should I better say, Löw must think about moral duty and perhaps resign. In some other countries for petty stuff would heads fall down. He is member of Elf since 2004 when he started working as Klinsmann's assistant coach. He knows everything very well, has watched this generation how they're growing and becoming fantastic players. You can't say I didn't know, I haven't had players to do it, etc. We'll see what's gonna happen next year when Germany must start work so hard and also think about own ambitions for 2014.

About leaders... Maybe someone is going to ask is he normal, but I don't see Schweinsteiger as a captain of Bayern and Germany, never. After that cowardice in CL final and when saw him last night how he grabbed himself for head instead he start yelling on everyone, motivating team to bounce back, he decided to confirm something what I didn't wanted to see after May 19 2012.

He won't be a captain, in my eyes. Even if he becomes one day, it will be just formally, cosmetic to see a tape on his right(not left) hand. Either in win or lose, you must be a big character, heads up, like Effenberg and Kahn in 1999.

Someone needs to bring back that well-known, lost german mentality of which entire world was talking before, even still today is normal to hear that in context with Elf and german football clubs. Reality is unfortunately, different. I hope not for long.

I think that too many people, especially Phil at the above-linked blog, are entirely forgetting that what pisses off so many German fans is the growing trend to melt down.

For the national team, going up 4:0 and drawing 4:4 is shocking. Then, there's that drought since 96. Then, that despicable loss against Italy at the Euro.

Losses of the past were at least suffered by German teams that were inferior but feisty. Wins were achieved with that same grit.

Fast-forward to the Joachim Löw era, which actually started when Klinsmann was in charge. Germany became a much more talented squad, which currently is very close to the summit. Only Spain can pretend being better. What have we seen since? Disappearance of that "never say die" spirit.

That's the problem, folks. It has nothing to do with one bad result and bouncing back. It has everything to do with an ongoing trend!

I agree with the call for Neuer as Bayern/Germany captain. He's got the biggest balls in both squads.

I think a lot of people tend to overlook one simple aspect when making these comparisons between the 90's generation, the 70's generation and today's generation. The fact that these are different generations. The game has evolved. Germany and Bayern have had to shed their grittiness, defensive mentality for a more technical, one touch possession based game because it was a necessity. It literally was a case of evolve or get left behind.

The modern game is far far more tactical. Even 'parking the bus' has become an art form since Mourinho laid his hands on it.
The modern game requires a lot more off the ball movements. Every successful team playing currently has attempted to master this aspect.
The modern game also comes with a lot of negatives such as playacting, referees are also harsher than before.

Which means that the players have to think about a lot more elements about the game. They have to be technical, environmental awareness is a must, constant off the ball movement is key. All these aspects German and Bayern players are mastering or have already mastered but it is unrealistic to assume that they can be both TECHNICAL and GRITTY/DETERMINED. Players who were gritty/determined by nature have always been 'less stylistic, technical' and have had to rely on their judgement, precision of tackles and heart to shine. If every German player was as technical as they are right now as well as gritty/determined then it would be a team of perfect footballers. There are players who walk a fine line of balance between those two aspects (like Muller) but more often than not most German players today fall in the technical category (including Schweinsteiger).

What Low needs to do is find a balance in the players he fields out in the starting 11, he needs more Khedira's and Mullers and he needs to understand that subbing out his work-horses is always a poor move. What I loved about Arne Friedrich when he was playing was that he was exactly that, a no bullshit kind of defender who ran till the 90th minute. Low needs to convert one of our starting CB's into that kind of player (Hummels most likely). He needs to have a player that puts hard work OVER technique in each area of the field. Hummels in defense, Khedira in Midfield and Muller in Attack and all three players need to be UNTOUCHABLE in the squad.

Low is an excellent coach but deep in tournaments he has always made a lot of poor tactical decisions. Playing such a high defensive line vs Italy? Playing very low pressing game vs Spain?. I mean he has a tendency to completely overlook any opponents other than Spain and he has a tendency to cower in fear in front of Spain's "superior game". Again he just needs to not over think things and just play Germany's game instead of countering whatever he 'thinks' the other team might throw at them, be slightly conservative against other opposition and give them some respect, be more disrespectful against Spain (Look at France in 2nd half).

But let me clear. All this still does not justify the 4-4 in my books. That is just idiotic. Team fell asleep completely. But I am not as mad about it because it does not dent our chances greatly about qualifying to WC. In fact I think hopefully hopefully it will be a real eye opener for a lot of the team.

Commodore wrote:
I can't post over there right now, as they have to approve my account first (and how the **** is "Commodore" taken?), but I'd be interested who in the last 30 years you think was a bad coach to win the World Cup?

Jacquet? Parreira? Jacquet's reputation I remember myself, while Parreira I can only rely on third party sources.

Then again, winning the World Cup immediately means you can't be called a bad coach anymore.

By the way, something I noticed - Schweini and Reus didn't commit a single foul, yet both had yellow cards. Sup wit dat?

Shweini - Time wasting
Reus - Bitching