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[2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:00 pm

Germany will win
11
73%
It will end in a draw
2
13%
Sweden will win
2
13%
 
Total votes : 15

Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:55 pm

America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:Well, you may have contracted the disease over the forum, it's entirely possible. I would start with my GP first. If symptoms persist I would recommend a specialist. 8) :mrgreen: :P

Jokes aside. If the Germans go home in the Group Stage that has to be the end of Löw and his class of 2010 favorites!

Ironically enough, he's just extended.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:09 pm

tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:There's nothing more important for a full back than speed; a measure of the highest priority. There should be, of course, non negotiable parameters such as stats for dribbled by, dispossession, etc, that would make Usain Bolt fail to qualify for fourth division. Having players with similar stats, offensive indexes for an attacking team such as assists for a team that overlaps as much as Germany does IS one of the defining factors as well.

Are you forgetting tackling? Interceptions? Marking?


The sweeper role is left solely to CBs, not full backs. Unless you are Neuer of course (a late sweeper) or early sweeper such as an inverted DM tasked with dispossessing Brazil for a 7-1. Interceptions, again, are stats more popular with CBs/DMs. Marking? Do you really log marking stats other than by observation or dispossession/blocking numbers?

Many of these defensive stats you mention are more important in CBs and DMs because you play in pairs where you have a back up. For a full back to try and intercept a pass and fail, the CB covering for your place spells a doomy outlook.

Well, for me speed and assists are attributes I'd normally associate with a winger not with a full back.
For example, Lahm had a low amount of assists and he was only really fast when he was young: was he not a good full back?
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby Ed. » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:49 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:Have a gut feeling that Sweden will beat Germany 1-0 or 2-1. I just cannot see a starting eleven comprising of Ozil, Muller, Khedira and Boateng turning it around!

You're starting to sound like #12.


Well, why is that pessimistic?

What do you seen Ozil, Muller & Khedira doing differently in a matter of 3 days against an opponent that is going to be better organized defensively than Mexico?

Did anyone watch Sweden's playoff vs Italy? Well if you didn't, you did not miss anything. They shut up shop at the back and fight for scraps up front.
They do not need 3 points from this game and there is going to be no change in their approach.

It's Germany who have to adapt.
Ozil is probably still needed in this one though. Even though he had a stinker against Mexico, his probing and recycling of the ball is going to be needed to bring down a brick wall.

Gomez and Gundogan in for Muller and Khedira for me.

If Loew goes with an unchanged XI, I think all of us will be gobsmacked.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby RB624 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:15 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:Well, you may have contracted the disease over the forum, it's entirely possible. I would start with my GP first. If symptoms persist I would recommend a specialist. 8) :mrgreen: :P

Jokes aside. If the Germans go home in the Group Stage that has to be the end of Löw and his class of 2010 favorites!

Ironically enough, he's just extended.


But it's not ironic. They do it before every major tournament. It's arrogance, and to me it's a kind of slap in the face to the regular working man and woman. I know the DFB isn't the government, it's a private entity, but to me it still should have some sort of fiscal responsibility - to show some sort of deference to the fans that support it. Instead they continuously renew his contract before he proves himself, knowing that if he fails and they need to fire him, they'll eat the entire amount.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby tflags » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:56 pm

MUTU wrote:Well, for me speed and assists are attributes I'd normally associate with a winger not with a full back.
For example, Lahm had a low amount of assists and he was only really fast when he was young: was he not a good full back?


You just answered your question. Speed is crucial in full backs exactly because speed is, along with crossing and dribbling, a winger's top priority.

Lahm was so tactically astute he knew when he could go forward and be supported by a DM and when to stay around midfield. This for a player whose overlapping counterpart played one legged. But he wasn't exactly a turtle either now was he?
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:04 pm

tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:Well, for me speed and assists are attributes I'd normally associate with a winger not with a full back.
For example, Lahm had a low amount of assists and he was only really fast when he was young: was he not a good full back?


You just answered your question. Speed is crucial in full backs exactly because speed is, along with crossing and dribbling, a winger's top priority.

Lahm was so tactically astute he knew when he could go forward and be supported by a DM and when to stay around midfield. This for a player whose overlapping counterpart played one legged. But he wasn't exactly a turtle either now was he?

No it doesn't answer my question.

For me Lahm was a top player not because of his speed but because of his general defensive attributes (especially his sliding tackles).
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby tflags » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:30 pm

MUTU wrote:For me Lahm was a top player not because of his speed but because of his general defensive attributes (especially his sliding tackles).


Sliding tackles. A resource used by players arriving late at the scene . . . Once again I'm finding myself in a discussion I'm not fully sure you grasp what I'm trying to explain or understand it.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby RB624 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:27 pm

tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:For me Lahm was a top player not because of his speed but because of his general defensive attributes (especially his sliding tackles).


Sliding tackles. A resource used by players arriving late at the scene . . .


Unfair critique. There are a lot of reasons to slide tackle: having to cover two men, or having to track back quickly after attacking, or moving over to cover for someone else, etc.

Plus, slide enough and you can really throw the opposition of their game. The 1990 World Cup team would never tackle standing up when they had enough room to slide - Brehme, Reuter, Kohler, Augenthaler, Berthold - all master-sliders.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:59 pm

RB624 wrote:
tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:For me Lahm was a top player not because of his speed but because of his general defensive attributes (especially his sliding tackles).


Sliding tackles. A resource used by players arriving late at the scene . . .


Unfair critique. There are a lot of reasons to slide tackle: having to cover two men, or having to track back quickly after attacking, or moving over to cover for someone else, etc.

Plus, slide enough and you can really throw the opposition of their game. The 1990 World Cup team would never tackle standing up when they had enough room to slide - Brehme, Reuter, Kohler, Augenthaler, Berthold - all master-sliders.

Also sometimes Lahm purposely let his opponent move into a position that allowed him to make that magic sliding tackle from which Lahm would be back on his feet with the ball at his feet while the opponent would still be mid-air.

A sliding tackle executed perfectly is as beautiful to watch as an overhead kick goal.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby Manchu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:28 pm

I think I've got it:


Indistinguishable from a 4-2-3-1 before the game,* allows more defensive stability by adding another CB, by adding a DM, and by detailing three fast players(Hector, Sule, Brandt) to support the CBs, and offensively an improvement (no more Draxler and an center forward who actually has presence in the box).

*Obviously this would only work once but it could provide a big short term advantage if it causes the Swedish coach to get his last tactical instructions completely wrong.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Manchu wrote:three fast players(Hector, Sule, Brandt)

Hardly fast... especially Suele's slow acceleration.

Anyway I like your lineup even though I'd prefer a more offensive role for Kimmich who assists a lot.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby tflags » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:35 pm

RB624 wrote:
tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:For me Lahm was a top player not because of his speed but because of his general defensive attributes (especially his sliding tackles).


Sliding tackles. A resource used by players arriving late at the scene . . .


Unfair critique.


Critique? Suddenly a 'resource' is a critique. Mmm. Interesting.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby aterford » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:59 pm

MUTU wrote:
Manchu wrote:three fast players(Hector, Sule, Brandt)

Hardly fast... especially Suele's slow acceleration.

Anyway I like your lineup even though I'd prefer a more offensive role for Kimmich who assists a lot.


I honestly don't understand the claims that Süle is slow in any regard. He looks as fast as any CB we've had in years to me. What am I missing?
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:08 pm

His acceleration is poor, symptom of his height. His top speed is decent.
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Re: [2018-06-23] Germany vs Sweden

Postby America USA » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:59 am

MUTU wrote:His acceleration is poor, symptom of his height. His top speed is decent.

Pick up should not be an issue if he can sense a turnover and start tracking back before the attackers sprint.


Ideal back three with two fast Central defenders and an experienced positional one sitting in the middle.
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