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General German national team thread

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.
 

Should Joachim Löw remain the German coach?

Yes, he is a great coach.
1
6%
Yes, because at the moment there's not many options.
5
28%
No, he should resign as Germany needs a new direction.
8
44%
No, he should be fired as he's doing a terrible job.
4
22%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:43 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:IMO Gomez at his best is (slightly) better than Wagner at his best.

Wagner does have the size advantage (he is taller than Mario) but Gomez seems to be a better finisher.

Gomez at his best was in 2012/13 when he finished the DFB Pokal as topscorer with a goalscoring rate of 1 goal every 12 minutes of playing time. No other player at any place at any time has been able to replicate anything close to that.

I know a few years ago this wouldn’t even be up for debate but even in 2018 I believe that an in-form Mario is better than an in-from Wagner (although it is very close)

Wagner Advantages: Taller, Younger and playing for Germany’s No.1 feeder club so he will have more chemistry with the likes of Thomas, Kimmich, Hummels and Boateng.
Gomez Advantages: Better finisher, has more experience with the NT/Löw and will possibly save Stuttgart with comparably poor service than Wagner has at Bayern.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:20 pm

America USA wrote:he will have more chemistry with the likes of Thomas, Kimmich, Hummels and Boateng.

Agreed with Kimmich, but Gomez has played more matches with Hummels and trained much more than Wagner with Thomas and Boateng. I know, it's been years since he's gone, but it's not like he didn't train with them in the national team, or that they're going to forget the playing styles of each other. Team chemistry is akin to driving a bicycle, I'd say.

America USA wrote:Younger

I don't think that's a factor for the World Cup. If this was the qualifier matches, then you'd have a point, but the weight of this factor is really low for the final stage of the World Cup. Ultimately, he'll choose the players who he thinks best give him a chance of winning the tournament. It doesn't really matter much if they're 15 or 45 years old.

Other Gomez advantages:
- Faster
- Slightly better dribbling
- Better composure
- More good-looking and marketable for the ladies :mrgreen:

Other Wagner advantages:
- More aggressive
- Better at heading
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm

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Re: General German national team thread

Postby #12 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:22 pm

I don’t get it... Isn’t this tweet just a senseless - and quite arrogant - provocation?
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:04 pm

#12 wrote:I don’t get it... Isn’t this tweet just a senseless - and quite arrogant - provocation?
Yes, it's like the people running the Twitter account would like to rile up their players and potentially injure a German player ahead of the World Cup.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:47 am

I would play the best possible team against Spain and experiment against Brazil with the fringe guys. Let Brazil win this friendly comfortably if that satisfies their desire for vengeance and hopefully it leads them into a false sense of confidence.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Manchu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:12 am

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Here's an interesting question: who do you think is stronger, Bayern Munich or the NT, in terms of squad and in terms of level of play?
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:46 am

Manchu wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!
Here's an interesting question: who do you think is stronger, Bayern Munich or the NT, in terms of squad and in terms of level of play?
Bayern is obviously stronger on paper (the only Germans who I think would start for Bayern are Kroos and Reus; OTOH, Alaba, Lewy, Javi/Thiago/Vidal and James would start for Germany).

This kind of comparison is kinda boring though, because Bayern is essentially the best of Germany + foreign stars, which almost categorically means Bayern is going to be better than the NT.

A more appropriate comparison would be is "How does Bayern's level relative to other elite clubs compare to Germany's level relative to other too nations?". In this comparison, I think Germany is stronger than Bayern; while our club has 2-3 clubs which are *at least* as good (probably stronger), Germany is likely the single strongest NT in the world.

One may argue that on paper France, Spain and Brazil can put similar level teams to Germany, but I'm not convinced this is the case. No nation has a squad so deep and balanced (great at every position) as Germany.

For example; France has a brilliant young attack (Dembele, Mbappe and Griezmann) but then their midfield and defense are suspect while their keeper... Who even is their keeper?

Spain has some brilliant defenders and midfielders but I don't think they can conjure even a single WC attacker.

Brazil has Neymar, Coutinho, Gabriel Jesus, but their midfield and defense are also suspect (except Marcelo probably).

Germany has quality all over the pitch; the only 2 starters I find wanting are Hector (pretty mediocre IMO) and Khedira (who should be relegated to the bench in favor of either Göretzka or Gündogan in any case). Everywhere else, Germany has a WC player at every position;

Reus-Werner-Müller
Kroos-Özil-Khedira
Hector-Hummels-Boateng-Kimmich
Neuer

Even If one the usual suspects is missing (I'm looking at Reus mostly), there's still Sané, Götze, Brandt, Gündogan, Göretzka, Süle, Tah, Mustafi, MaTS, Leno... Germany's depth is quite impressive. I don't think any other nation can put up such a high quality X11, and even if they can, the subs are nowhere near as good as Germany's.

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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:06 am

^ Bayern is stronger than Germany overall but I think Reus, Sane, Kroos and Gundogan are all good enough to start for Bayern. I agree I don’t like such comparisons.

However, it is ignorant to say France have a suspect defence. Umtiti and Varane are the fastest CB pairing in the World. I think the only vulnerability they have is in the FB positions. Pogba, Matuidi, Tolisso, Kante and Rabiot are all very good midfielders and Lloris is a top quality goalkeeper.

Spain have Ramos-Pique as their CBs and Carvajal and Alba as their FBs. On par if not better than Germany. Iniesta, Busquets, Roberto, Thiago, Saul, Koke, Fabregas and Silva; that’s a stacked midfield. Pedro, Costa and Asensio in attack and De Gea in goal. On paper Spain are the strongest opponent for Germany.

Brazil though I agree. Their midfield and defense lacks depth. Argentina also have the same problem. Messi, Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Pastore, Lamela and Dybala. They are stacked in attack but their midfield and defenders are suspect.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:54 am

America USA wrote:^ Bayern is stronger than Germany overall but I think Reus, Sane, Kroos and Gundogan are all good enough to start for Bayern. I agree I don’t like such comparisons.

However, it is ignorant to say France have a suspect defence. Umtiti and Varane are the fastest CB pairing in the World. I think the only vulnerability they have is in the FB positions. Pogba, Matuidi, Tolisso, Kante and Rabiot are all very good midfielders and Lloris is a top quality goalkeeper.

Spain have Ramos-Pique as their CBs and Carvajal and Alba as their FBs. On par if not better than Germany. Iniesta, Busquets, Roberto, Thiago, Saul, Koke, Fabregas and Silva; that’s a stacked midfield. Pedro, Costa and Asensio in attack and De Gea in goal. On paper Spain are the strongest opponent for Germany.

Brazil though I agree. Their midfield and defense lacks depth. Argentina also have the same problem. Messi, Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Pastore, Lamela and Dybala. They are stacked in attack but their midfield and defenders are suspect.


France is probably the second strongest nation, but still I don't think it's close to Germany (on paper). Hummels is probably the single best CB in the world and Boa on his day is top 3. Umtiti and Varane are not as good as those two. As for FBs; Kimmich's only contendor is Carvajal (I think Carvajal is still significantly better). Hector is mediocre, as I said.

Their MF is highly overrated though. Inconsistent and overrated. We'll see how they do, but I think it lacks discipline and intelligence; it's too raw and too headless. They don't have any orchestrators like Kroos or Thiago, someone to keep the machine going. Pogba is an incredible MF talent who has zero positional discipline and needs a couple of smarter MFs to baby-sit him. Kante and Tolisso aren't the bright type either. Who's gonna be the babysitter in that MF?

Lloris? Come on... Where do you place him in the goalkeepers ranking? I'm pretty sure Germany has at least two GKs who are better, probably more.

As to Spain; yes, they indeed have a very very stacked MF, the problem is they can't use them all at the same time!!! :'D and I maintain my position regarding their attack; not a single world class player.

PD: You raise an interesting point regarding Sané. Sané is very unlikely to be a starter for Germany because he mostly plays the RW and that spot belongs to Müller in the NT. Don't you find it paradoxical? He isn't good enough to start as a RW for Germany because Müller is better, and yet he would be good enough to start for Bayern despite Bayern having Müller too? This is a system problem; Germany does a better job at using Müller than Bayern, mostly because Bayern keeps insisting wing-oriented dribbler-heavy systems for which it no longer has the right players. I haven't watched much Shitty lately, but it seems Pep moved Sané to the LW. He would start over Coman/Ribery surely, but will still not start for Germany on that side (there's Reus, and Löw favorites Schürrle and Götze).

As to Gündogan; he is a player I like a lot, but I'm not sure I would bench one of Javi, Thiago, James or Vidal for him.



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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Manchu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:29 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Bayern is obviously stronger on paper (the only Germans who I think would start for Bayern are Kroos and Reus; OTOH, Alaba, Lewy, Javi/Thiago/Vidal and James would start for Germany).

This kind of comparison is kinda boring though, because Bayern is essentially the best of Germany + foreign stars, which almost categorically means Bayern is going to be better than the NT.

I'm not quite so sure of that. Quite a few of Germany's best players don't play for Bayern:
Excellent players that Germany has access to but Bayern doesn't: Mario Gomez*, Mario Gotze*, Ozil*, Sane*, Draxler*, Brandt*, Kroos*, Gundogan*, Goreztka, Howedes, Ter Stegen(excluding Reus and Badstuber due to not being called up in forever)(*=Good enough to start for Bayern)

Excellent players that Bayern has access to but Germany doesn't: Lewandowski*, Robben, Thiago*, Vidal*, Martinez*, James*, Coman, Alaba*(*=good enough to start for Germany).

Thus, you can see that it isn't quite so one-sided. I would say that Germany has a large advantage in attack now that the striker problem has been solved, that the midfield between the two teams is about even with maybe a slight advantage to Bayern, and that Bayern has a significant advantage in defense because Alaba is much better than Hector. Germany also has a depth advantage with goalkeepers since Ter Stegen(who I'm starting to think might be the best young keeper since Neuer) is much better than Ulreich.

Overall, I think the various advantages and disadvantages just about balance each other out in terms of squad strength.

As for level of play, I think I might give a slight advantage to Bayern simply because the team plays together much more often, but both teams are tactically very well organized. The contrast between styles is also interesting, because Germany is stylistically probably the modern team closest to Pep Guardiola's Barcelona while Bayern is the only ultra high possession to regularly play without a regista.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby ramsej84 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:56 am

America USA wrote:I would play the best possible team against Spain and experiment against Brazil with the fringe guys. Let Brazil win this friendly comfortably if that satisfies their desire for vengeance and hopefully it leads them into a false sense of confidence.
Plus Germans should be wary of the dog of Casemiro ...

Spain play easy and never play to harm their opponents

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Re: General German national team thread

Postby ramsej84 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:56 am

Manchu wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!
Here's an interesting question: who do you think is stronger, Bayern Munich or the NT, in terms of squad and in terms of level of play?
FC Bayern

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Re: General German national team thread

Postby #12 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:45 am

Manchu wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Bayern is obviously stronger on paper (the only Germans who I think would start for Bayern are Kroos and Reus; OTOH, Alaba, Lewy, Javi/Thiago/Vidal and James would start for Germany).

This kind of comparison is kinda boring though, because Bayern is essentially the best of Germany + foreign stars, which almost categorically means Bayern is going to be better than the NT.

I'm not quite so sure of that. Quite a few of Germany's best players don't play for Bayern:
Excellent players that Germany has access to but Bayern doesn't: Mario Gomez*, Mario Gotze*, Ozil*, Sane*, Draxler*, Brandt*, Kroos*, Gundogan*, Goreztka, Howedes, Ter Stegen(excluding Reus and Badstuber due to not being called up in forever)(*=Good enough to start for Bayern)

Excellent players that Bayern has access to but Germany doesn't: Lewandowski*, Robben, Thiago*, Vidal*, Martinez*, James*, Coman, Alaba*(*=good enough to start for Germany).

Thus, you can see that it isn't quite so one-sided. I would say that Germany has a large advantage in attack now that the striker problem has been solved, that the midfield between the two teams is about even with maybe a slight advantage to Bayern, and that Bayern has a significant advantage in defense because Alaba is much better than Hector. Germany also has a depth advantage with goalkeepers since Ter Stegen(who I'm starting to think might be the best young keeper since Neuer) is much better than Ulreich.

Overall, I think the various advantages and disadvantages just about balance each other out in terms of squad strength.

As for level of play, I think I might give a slight advantage to Bayern simply because the team plays together much more often, but both teams are tactically very well organized. The contrast between styles is also interesting, because Germany is stylistically probably the modern team closest to Pep Guardiola's Barcelona while Bayern is the only ultra high possession to regularly play without a regista.


You’re kidding, right?!
I mean, seriously, how the **** should Gomez, Draxler, and Brandt play for Bayern? Gomez is a shadow of his past form, Draxler can’t even start for PSG when Neymar is not playing and Brandt plays at friggin Leverkusen... I mean you might well say I could start for Bayern by that reasoning...
Özil is a talented player, but I don’t see him adding more to our team than James, Thiago or Müller...
Bayern tempo - and Vidal - would eat Germany -and Khedira- alive!!

Also, 8 months ago I would’ve agreed about Ter Stegen - but right now I find your assessment of Ulreich quite disrespectful...

Generally club teams always have an advantage over NTs, cause they have more training sessions and thus better connection
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Khedira. I do not understand why users here keep mentioning him as a player who will 100% be going to Russia. I have watched Juventus in a few big matches this season and he has been ineffective in midfield. In the Tottenham tie he was poor in both legs apart from a brief 20 minute spell at the Wembley (60th minute to 80th). If you take out Löw’s favouritism and selection is solely on merit then Can has a far better case than Khedira. Luckily for Khedira Juventus have quite a few big games left in this season so he can prove me wrong.

Re: Goalkeeper. I would be pretty surprised if Ulreich doesn’t get a call up in the upcoming friendlies. And sentimental reasons aside, if Neuer cannot return to Bayern training by late April then even his place in the final squad is in doubt.
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