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General German football thread

Discussions on German clubs and football. Want to hear more about Borussia Dortmund, Schalke, Bayer Leverkusen and other Bundesliga teams? Find it all here.
 

Re: General German football thread

Postby America USA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:33 pm

I’m with ramsej on this one. I feel that the money madness in Football is gotta end someday. Either because the billionaire owner loses interest (Roman and Chelsea possibly?) or if the global economy is down or due to some other financial reason. I don’t think this money madness in today’s football is sustainable. That’s just my opinion. (I don’t have any data to suggest or predict a future global economic crisis or to claim that the owners of some plastic club might lose interest)

If (When) this money mania fades away everything will be back to the roots for football and the Eredivisie model of developing your own talent will again become mainstream.

Also two things I wanna say in this regard:
1. I don’t think German teams are doing as bad in Europe as so many users here seem to think. Yes this season was not good but it’s not all doom and gloom as so many people online seem to make it out. What I think Germany/BL needs is to have the better quality teams (Schalke, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, Frankfurt, Gladbach, Leipzig) qualify for the CL/EL consistently and not random ones like this season (Cologne, Hoffenheim, Freiburg, etc.) I’m not saying Hoffenheim didn’t deserve their European spot but the stronger teams like Schalke, Wolfsburg, etc. need to pull up their socks and do better in the league so as to finish consistently higher up in the table.

2. What the BL is doing seems to be working fine for the NT. If money perverts German football I’m afraid the German NT could suffer like the English NT. English youth hardly ever get a chance in the PL and as a result the English team is so mediocre when it comes to big tournaments.

That’s all.
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Re: General German football thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:07 pm

things will only change when football will be re considered as a sport rather than business.

make wage / transfer caps.
foreign quota. (at least on the field of play) and there you will have back football!
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Re: General German football thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:56 pm

America USA wrote:I’m with ramsej on this one. I feel that the money madness in Football is gotta end someday. Either because the billionaire owner loses interest (Roman and Chelsea possibly?) or if the global economy is down or due to some other financial reason. I don’t think this money madness in today’s football is sustainable. That’s just my opinion. (I don’t have any data to suggest or predict a future global economic crisis or to claim that the owners of some plastic club might lose interest)

If (When) this money mania fades away everything will be back to the roots for football and the Eredivisie model of developing your own talent will again become mainstream.

Also two things I wanna say in this regard:
1. I don’t think German teams are doing as bad in Europe as so many users here seem to think. Yes this season was not good but it’s not all doom and gloom as so many people online seem to make it out. What I think Germany/BL needs is to have the better quality teams (Schalke, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, Frankfurt, Gladbach, Leipzig) qualify for the CL/EL consistently and not random ones like this season (Cologne, Hoffenheim, Freiburg, etc.) I’m not saying Hoffenheim didn’t deserve their European spot but the stronger teams like Schalke, Wolfsburg, etc. need to pull up their socks and do better in the league so as to finish consistently higher up in the table.

2. What the BL is doing seems to be working fine for the NT. If money perverts German football I’m afraid the German NT could suffer like the English NT. English youth hardly ever get a chance in the PL and as a result the English team is so mediocre when it comes to big tournaments.

That’s all.
The problem with the Bundesliga is not so much attracting foreign talents (that's a secondary issue), it's retaining locals, so your NT comparison to England makes no sense IMO. The only way a top BuLi player stays beyond his first promising season (be him German or not) is if Bayern buy him; that is leading to decreasing quality and no competition whatsoever.

There's also a second thing; I think you're overstating the influence of owners significantly. They gave a boost to teams like Chelsea or Shitty a decade ago, but the EPL is now generating enough money to make competition against other leagues (save for PSG and the Spaniard two) imposible.

The core issue for BuLi is that now, even sh!t teams like Arsenal or Liverpool take the best players from BVB or RBL... That's unacceptable. And it's interesting because both just so happens to be a low-spending clubs in comparison to their local peers and the owners are thought as penny-pinchers.

In relation to European performances; there is some degree of mismanagement in BuLi teams. But the fact remains that the instability of BuLi European teams mostly comes down to them not being able to retain key players.

Look at Wolfsburg for example, they qualified to the CL on the back of monstrous KDB performances and lost him in the summer (alongside a very good Perisic). A few years latter even Ricardo Rodríguez left. Loosing KDB basically showed Perisic and RR that Wolfsburg didn't have an ambitious enough project, and the team that went to the CL is simply not even remotely the same that won qualification.

Then there's Dortmund. They had an INCREDIBLE first season under Tuchel. Reus-Aubameyang-Mhkitaryan was probably the second most entertaining attacking trio in European football (after the MSN). As soon as the summer came, they lost Mhikitaryan alongside Gündogan and Hummels... Which threw them into a full rebuild mode. But it's not only the rebuild that hurt. One summer latter, Dembele already knew BVB was content to be a stepping stone and demanded an immediate transfer. The whole Dortmund 2010-2017 project has already collapsed IMO and is beyond recovery.

It is highly unlikely that things will go back to the more "amateurish" ways of the past; entities such as United, Madrid, Barça, Bayern, Juve, PSG and Shitty have simply grown too much for their rivals and generate much more money endogenously. Globalisation is also something that just can't be turned back or undone.

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Re: General German football thread

Postby America USA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:15 pm

ramsej84 wrote:tbh the others can do what they want unless we stay as we are

^ This 1000%. Just because the rest are selling their souls to the devil doesn’t mean that Germany/BL/Bayern need to follow suit.

BTW If Germany was to get rid of current ownership model and allow Corporations, Sheikhs or “Businessmen” to own the teams there is no reason to believe that the league would suddenly become more “competitive” (btw the BL is pretty damn competitive as it is right now) or that the performance of German clubs in Europe would suddenly skyrocket.

It is possible that the team with the richest owner would then start dominating the league. As is happening in France since PSG’s take over by the Qataris. As is likely to happen in England with Man City if Pep stays in charge for another few years and keeps getting the players he wants. Man City and PSG are oil clubs that have owners with bottomless pockets. They can find all sorts of “tactics” to circumvent the FFP regulations. Man City/PSG can afford to buy any player and pay the wages of said player, that is just a fact. If they can keep hold of Pep and keep spending £300m every summer then I am pretty sure that Man City would dominate the PL in the near future similar to how dominant Juventus have been in the Serie A this decade.

So yeah “opening” the BL up to money could simply see the team with the richest ownership dominating the competition. Now detractors will say that Bayern (richest team in Germany) do the same thing in the BL. However, Bayern’s wealth is based on years of success, wise management and smart financial decisions, unlike PSG or Man City. Bayern’s ownership adheres to the 50+1 model.

Also, the ownership by rich tycoons does not guarantee success on the European stage. PSG and Man City are yet to appear in a CL final or even win the EL for that matter and only Chelsea are one club who have won anything of note in Europe after take over by a sugar daddy (that too was the luckiest CL win in contemporary history)

Finally, the last thing I want to see in the BL is Vitesse Arnhem Part 2, where a German club like Werder becomes a feeder club for a top six PL club!
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Re: General German football thread

Postby America USA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:30 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote: so your NT comparison to England makes no sense IMO.

Oh but it does. I was saying that let us suppose Germany gets rid of 50+1 and becomes the next PL with billionaire owners only concerned with short term success. If that was to happen the German youngsters in the BL would suffer the same fate at their English counterparts in the Premier League, that is rotting on the bench or endless loan spells in Portugal, Netherlands, France or in some lower division club. In that scenario the German NT would suffer just like the English NT does.

Also, people need to stop complaining about the Premier League and all of its money. The PL is the most popular European National league in the world as a result of the legacy of the British Empire. English is a truly global language as well. Similarly La Liga has the legacy of the Spanish Empire behind it. Therefore the PL and La Liga have a natural cultural head start on the BL. To bridge that gap, what the Bundesliga needs is better performances in European competitions to attract the attention of Global audiences. How that is achieved is a very different topic and a difficult one to address.
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Re: General German football thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:58 pm

America USA wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote: so your NT comparison to England makes no sense IMO.

Oh but it does. I was saying that let us suppose Germany gets rid of 50+1 and becomes the next PL with billionaire owners only concerned with short term success. If that was to happen the German youngsters in the BL would suffer the same fate at their English counterparts in the Premier League, that is rotting on the bench or endless loan spells in Portugal, Netherlands, France or in some lower division club. In that scenario the German NT would suffer just like the English NT does.

Also, people need to stop complaining about the Premier League and all of its money. The PL is the most popular European National league in the world as a result of the legacy of the British Empire. English is a truly global language as well. Similarly La Liga has the legacy of the Spanish Empire behind it. Therefore the PL and La Liga have a natural cultural head start on the BL. To bridge that gap, what the Bundesliga needs is better performances in European competitions to attract the attention of Global audiences. How that is achieved is a very different topic and a difficult one to address.
I don't think Germany would stop producing talents because of a money injection; rather, I think it would help the teams retain them. Look at the last 2-3 transfer windows; English teams are taking every single talented guy not on Bayern! Imagine what could have been of Schalke (as an example) if they hadn't lost Özil, Neuer, Höwedes, Matip, Sané, Draxler and Göretzka (plus Meyer). Gladbach too had a good time with Kramer, Xhaka, Stindl and Raffael. Wolfsburg with RR, Naldo and KDB. It's the same for every German team which had a nice period and lost all their good players only for the project to collapse and perpetually being in rebuild mode.

What does Schalke even have to show for that bunch of great players they produced? Nothing at all! Are they paying dividends on members or what???

That's what the league has to work on; some more ambition and the capacity to retain players.

It's true that EPL and la Liga have a headstart, it doesn't mean BuLi has to rollover and die like the Eridivisie did. I for one welcome the (apparent) ambition of the RBL project, and hope they keep their players and project together until they fullfil their potential.

PD: RBL are actually a great example of an sponsored club being able to carry out a non-stupid but ambitious project, unlike Chelsea, Shitty and PSG did for so long before the last year.

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Re: General German football thread

Postby America USA » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:30 pm

Effenberg’s radical idea to make the Bundesliga “more competitive”

Not in favor of this. Why?
1. If this goes through then while Bayern are involved in a serious title challenge with key players playing non stop BL games, PSG, Barcelona and some other big clubs across Europe (most likely having a comfortable lead in their respective leagues) will be resting their superstars for the midweek CL games and as a result their players will be fresher when the time comes for the CL games. Our luck with injuries has made player rotation vital for us and in the scenario that Effenberg suggests I can see a repeat of Lewandowski injury right before Real Madrid happening again.

2. Why is such a hassle being made of Bayern winning consecutive BL titles? Juventus have won six Scudetto’s now and are likely to win their seventh in a row. Lyon won seven straight titles in France. Since 2010 Barcelona have dominated La Liga apart from a fee seasons. Manchester United ruled the Premier League for its first two decades. I think much ado is being made about Bayern’s dominance. Instead of these radical ideas why not do the simple thing? Why don’t Dortmund, Schalke, Leipzig and Leverkusen stop dropping silly points? Last season if Leipzig had been more consistent in the second half of the season there would have been a title race. This season Dortmund had a five point lead on Bayern when we sacked the Italian fatso. It is not Bayern’s fault that their German opponents bottle it when push comes to shove.

3. In my professional opinion, the BL is very competitive. Anyone who says other wise either doesn’t watch the games, is biased or possibly both. Teams don’t roll over for Bayern and Bayern have to fight for all of their wins. In BL (and La Liga) even the mid table and relegation threatened teams play proper football and go down fighting. In the PL apart from some of the top six teams and the rare mid table club like Bournemouth, the majority of the division plays possibly the worst brand of football. PL teams are experts at Parking the bus, almost 50% of the teams in the PL play with a back five and two defensive midfielders in front of them. Managers like Tony Pulis and Sam Allardyce are considered “great”. The fear of relegation is so high that negative anti-football tactics rule the roost. Hell even the second best team in the PL right now Parks the Bus when up against a decent opponent. This bullshit about the PL being super competitive and the BL not is pure bias and people who believe it have bought into that hype and propaganda.
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Re: General German football thread

Postby DerKaiser » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:54 pm

I see the problem with teams like Schalke,Leverkussen and Dortmund is that they are lead by people who can only consider money. They are doing extremely well financially and as long as that works there is no need for them to change. What is missing is that drive to be that top tier team that strives to be under the best 10 in the world. Only sollutions i see is getting rid of those stale ceo, managers and sometimes this only happens when that bigger fish (moneybags) comes along. I hope RBL keeps at it and I think as long as they keep Ragnik, they will.
Look at Hamburg for example, just because they have profits all those losers in charge get to remain there
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Re: General German football thread

Postby FCB general » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:31 pm

Can't see tweet? Click here!


What should we say about this... Beautiful? Sweet? :-k
Auf geht's ihr Roten!
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Re: General German football thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:51 pm

FCB general wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!


What should we say about this... Beautiful? Sweet? :-k

For me the funniest part is the word used in this tweet... "mastrubering" :lol: Almost Badstubering
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Re: General German football thread

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:06 pm

MUTU wrote:
FCB general wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!


What should we say about this... Beautiful? Sweet? :-k

For me the funniest part is the word used in this tweet... "mastrubering" Almost Badstubering
Or that standing guy how he moved away his hand when the wanker was passing by

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Re: General German football thread

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Funny article I read in German ended with „Fir Hertha, however, the match was very unsatisfactory“
JUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPP
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Re: General German football thread

Postby Bayernbazi » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:49 am

Spotted another German Club Ultras sticker on this box just outside Luxol Stadium - Ultras Trier.
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Re: General German football thread

Postby Bayernbazi » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm

If I'm translating correctly - the professional clubs voted to retain the 50+1 rule and VAR.
Deep down I'm in favour of 50+1 and the fan culture in Germany but as things are going elsewhere I hope that these clubs have a clear road map on how to strike a balance and yet not keep falling back from the English clubs' free flow of money.

https://sport.sky.de/fussball/artikel/dfl-50-1-regel-bleibt-bestehen/11300175/34252?wkz=WXMNL1whatsapp
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Re: General German football thread

Postby FCB12Forever » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:37 am

Bayernbazi wrote:If I'm translating correctly - the professional clubs voted to retain the 50+1 rule and VAR.
Deep down I'm in favour of 50+1 and the fan culture in Germany but as things are going elsewhere I hope that these clubs have a clear road map on how to strike a balance and yet not keep falling back from the English clubs' free flow of money.

https://sport.sky.de/fussball/artikel/dfl-50-1-regel-bleibt-bestehen/11300175/34252?wkz=WXMNL1whatsapp


I just wonder how many "for" votes and how many "against" votes. I remember last time it was 17 "for", 1 "against", which was Hannover 96.
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