You are not logged in or registered. Please login or register to use the full functionality of BayernForum.com

Borussia Dortmund

Discussions on German clubs and football. Want to hear more about Borussia Dortmund, Schalke, Bayer Leverkusen and other Bundesliga teams? Find it all here.
 

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Hardrade » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:35 pm

I think overselling is the main issue with Dortmund, and frankly I don’t understand finding any satisfaction in yet another talent leaving the club - at any price.

It’s the stepping stone philosophy that kills clubs aspiring to greatness. Bayern was in similar situation with Ribery 10 years ago.
Image
User avatar
Hardrade
I post all the time
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:27 pm
Location: Belgrade
National Flag:
Serbia and Montenegro
Has thanked: 284 times
Been thanked: 908 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:52 pm

What other choice do we have than to sell? Keep the player longer and let him go for free? We've only sold players with one year left of contract, they didn't want to sign a new one, what is your solution to the problem? I'm listening.

Comments like these are just silly my friend because it's not enough to just "change the philosophy" and not sell and somehow, by a touch of a magic wand, everything will be different. That's not how football works, that's not how the world works. You need to improve day after day by a little bit before you become the best and you can keep the best.
User avatar
Borusse
Borussia Dortmund Supporter
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:07 am
National Flag:
Poland
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 1433 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby MUTU » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:32 pm

Borusse wrote:What other choice do we have than to sell? Keep the player longer and let him go for free? We've only sold players with one year left of contract, they didn't want to sign a new one, what is your solution to the problem? I'm listening.

Comments like these are just silly my friend because it's not enough to just "change the philosophy" and not sell and somehow, by a touch of a magic wand, everything will be different. That's not how football works, that's not how the world works. You need to improve day after day by a little bit before you become the best and you can keep the best.

Whilst I completely agree with what you're saying, since you're effectively saying the same thing I wrote just a few posts before... there IS something you can do. You need to improve your academy. Youth products are more likely to be loyal and fend off interest from more prestigious clubs, but I feel that youth development in the BVB youths is not given a high-enough priority, at least this is an outsider's view on the actual results.
30GB free cloud storage. Click here for the referral.
User avatar
MUTU
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 49344
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: L-Imqabba, Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 8964 times
Been thanked: 14643 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:21 pm

Talking about transfers only, i think Dormund are doing a great job in the last years.

Buying Reus from BMG for around 18m, now he is the leader of their team and one of the best players in the League.
Sokratis for 10m, good player for his price, they sold him for 16m.
Gündogan for 5.5m, City paid 27m.
Aubameyang for 13m, for me he is one of the best strikers in the modern football, Arsenal paid 64m for him.
Mkhitaryan for 28m, excellent transfer for his price, United paid 42m.
Dembele for 15m, very tallented kid but with altitude problems, sold him for 115m. They paid 4m for Mats, then sold him for 35m.
Pulisic cost them 0m, i like him, but i think Chelsea overpayed for him with these 64m.

Also,
A player that i followed since his days in Caen, and i like very much Guerreiro for 12m..
Weigl for 2.5m, Zagadou for free,
Kagawa for 8m after they got him for free, United paid 16 or 18m for him and then for that price the deal was a no brainer. Witsel for 20m ?!? Paco for 23m ? Sancho for almost 8m...

I think in the recent years they messed with Shürrle and Yarmolenko, and the situation with Lewa.
Last edited by IsiahRashad on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Salihamidžić: “Correct. Dayot Upamecano will play for FC Bayern for the next five years."
User avatar
IsiahRashad
Moderator & 2019/20 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 11089
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:38 pm
National Flag:
Bulgaria
Has thanked: 5595 times
Been thanked: 5941 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:06 pm

Weird deal for me.

64m is good money for Dortmund for a player with one year left on contract especially when you're getting him back on loan for half a season.
At the same time I'm pretty sure every Dortmund fan was convinced that he was worth 100m+ this time last year :lol:
God Bless Thomas Müller
User avatar
aterford
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:40 am
Has thanked: 4726 times
Been thanked: 4285 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby #12 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:17 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:Talking about transfers only, i think Dormund are doing a great job in the last years.

Buying Reus from BMG for around 18m, now he is the leader of their team and one of the best players in the League.
Sokratis for 10m, good player for his price, they sold him for 16m.
Gündogan for 5.5m, City paid 27m.
Aubameyang for 13m, for me he is one of the best strikers in the modern football, Arsenal paid 64m for him.
Mkhitaryan for 28m, excellent transfer for his price, United paid 42m.
Dembele for 15m, very tallented kid but with altitude problems, sold him for 115m. They paid 4m for Mats, then sold him for 35m.
Pulisic cost them 0m, i like him, but i think Chelsea overpayed for him with these 64m.

Also,
A player that i followed since his days in Caen, and i like very much Guerreiro for 12m..
Weigl for 2.5m, Zagadou for free,
Kagawa for 8m after they got him for free, United paid 16 or 18m for him and then for that price the deal was a no brainer. Witsel for 20m ?!? Paco for 23m ? Sancho for almost 8m...

I think in the recent years they messed with Shürrle and Yarmolenko, and the situation with Lewa.


Better get Dembélé down to earth then... Pun also intended
Summer 2020: Hasan, show us your weakness!!
User avatar
#12
Chief Critic
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 26889
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 1:31 pm
National Flag:
Germany
Has thanked: 1348 times
Been thanked: 6023 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:14 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:Talking about transfers only, i think Dormund are doing a great job in the last years.

Buying Reus from BMG for around 18m, now he is the leader of their team and one of the best players in the League.
Sokratis for 10m, good player for his price, they sold him for 16m.
Gündogan for 5.5m, City paid 27m.
Aubameyang for 13m, for me he is one of the best strikers in the modern football, Arsenal paid 64m for him.
Mkhitaryan for 28m, excellent transfer for his price, United paid 42m.
Dembele for 15m, very tallented kid but with altitude problems, sold him for 115m. They paid 4m for Mats, then sold him for 35m.
Pulisic cost them 0m, i like him, but i think Chelsea overpayed for him with these 64m.

Also,
A player that i followed since his days in Caen, and i like very much Guerreiro for 12m..
Weigl for 2.5m, Zagadou for free,
Kagawa for 8m after they got him for free, United paid 16 or 18m for him and then for that price the deal was a no brainer. Witsel for 20m ?!? Paco for 23m ? Sancho for almost 8m...

I think in the recent years they messed with Shürrle and Yarmolenko, and the situation with Lewa.


Agreed on everything here. Schurrle and Yarmolenko were mistakes indeed. With Lewandowski the board didn't act fast enough and they didn't predict how good he will become. We had our shot to extend his contract back at the beginning of 11/12 season when he was starting to play an important role for the team but it was still unclear if he's all that great. When we didn't do that, we missed our moment. After that he scored too many goals too quickly and he was already set on moving to a bigger club later so it was too late.

MUTU wrote:
Borusse wrote:What other choice do we have than to sell? Keep the player longer and let him go for free? We've only sold players with one year left of contract, they didn't want to sign a new one, what is your solution to the problem? I'm listening.

Comments like these are just silly my friend because it's not enough to just "change the philosophy" and not sell and somehow, by a touch of a magic wand, everything will be different. That's not how football works, that's not how the world works. You need to improve day after day by a little bit before you become the best and you can keep the best.

Whilst I completely agree with what you're saying, since you're effectively saying the same thing I wrote just a few posts before... there IS something you can do. You need to improve your academy. Youth products are more likely to be loyal and fend off interest from more prestigious clubs, but I feel that youth development in the BVB youths is not given a high-enough priority, at least this is an outsider's view on the actual results.


Yeah, okay, I can agree that we could improve in this area. But unfortunately it wouldn't be any guarantee of keeping the player, though it could help.
User avatar
Borusse
Borussia Dortmund Supporter
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:07 am
National Flag:
Poland
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 1433 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:45 pm

I think Dortmund has certainly started to improve things, but transfers like Dembele and Aubameyang are worrisome to me as I think those kind of things can be precedent-setting. It's effectively saying if you're good enough to fetch a high fee and put up enough of a fuss you'll get a move. Dembele was under contract until 2021, Auba until 2020. Would it have been that outrageous to simply refuse a sale and stick one or both on the bench or in the reserves until they straighten up? I'm generally not a fan of such "THE CLUB IS BIGGER!!" displays but I think when you're trying to get rid of your 'selling club' reputation it's perhaps better to make such a display...

In addition there's things like management telling Tuchel and publicly saying that they wouldn't sell Hummels, Mkhi, Gundogan...and then turning around and doing just that thing. And then you've got players who leave like Sahin, Kagawa, Götze and mostly fail - and come back to Dortmund and are given a BIG contract (Kagawa and Götze are, as far as I can still tell, two of the highest earners in the squad). Similarly, I think there's been a few times when 'echte liebe' has went a bit too far (and of course Bayern has been equally guilty here). It's no secret that a lot of players will leave for more money and Dortmund can't always compete in wages. But I also think it's been the case that occasionally there's been just a bit too much 'fat' in the wage bill - salaries tied up in players who aren't really earning them or aren't quite 'worth' that level of pay - but for whatever reason these players seem to stick around - i don't know if it's team 'loyalty', a lack of suitors, or what, but I think this has caused some difficulties in keeping wantaway players - I'm just not sure there's much room to play with in regards to wages, at times.

It's not too long ago that we were hearing how this buy-sell-replace strategy had caught up with Dortmund - under Stöger and Bosz (who were poor), many started turning to blame both the manager AND the management in regards to their selling and spending policies. Has that all changed in one half-season? Were fans wrong to complain all along? I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Anyways, it's a difficult problem and I think it's made worse by Dortmund's publicly-traded nature. It seems to me that Watzke's first obligation will always be to the shareholders rather than the fans and I think that sometimes the goals of these two camps are not always in perfect alignment - and that will tend to create a bit of a rub. But I think things are certainly getting better, just a lot of work left to do. I am still curious to see how things with Favre continue to play out in the future. He has not exactly had a reputation for longevity and the way he left Germany last time he was a manager would have me a biiiiit worried, but we'll see...
God Bless Thomas Müller
User avatar
aterford
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:40 am
Has thanked: 4726 times
Been thanked: 4285 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 pm

You're bringing up many interesting subjects and you're partially right too.

It has already been addressed by the club after Dembele's transfer that this kind of behaviour will not fly in Dortmund anymore. Watzke admitted BVB has lost some character in the last few years and that's why many changes were made during the summer, with new people like Kehl and Sammer coming to help bring back the right mentality in the team.
However keeping a player in reserves is in my opinion a very ineffective tactic, if the player is behaving well in training and on the pitch but doesn't want to sign a new contract and you punish him by not playing him or making him play in the reserves it sends a terrible message to every player in the team and every player who could be interested in coming to the club in the future. Nothing to be gained there. It only makes sense if the player is acting like Dembele, then sure he shouldn't even participate in team training and shouldn't get paied for not doing his duty as an employee.

Anyway, the bad/soft mentality also showed in bringing back players who failed after moving from Dortmund and giving them big wages. Sahin was finally sold though, Kagawa will be sold probably this window and we won't extend Gotze's contract unless he agrees to a smaller wage.

A lot has changed over the summer. But Watzke and Zorc started doing the work long before, somewhere after hiring Stoger. They realised they've made some mistakes, admitted publicly that they've made them and then they started working on fixing them. We sold most of the crappy players we had, hired a strong coach, hired good consultants and the future looks bright.
User avatar
Borusse
Borussia Dortmund Supporter
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:07 am
National Flag:
Poland
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 1433 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby DRvad14 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:16 pm

User avatar
DRvad14
I'm a post king!
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:40 pm
National Flag:
India
Has thanked: 1993 times
Been thanked: 1679 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:26 pm

With zero titles won
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
User avatar
ramsej84
I tattooed BayernForum.com on my ass
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 51361
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:47 pm
Location: Birkirkara - Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 33651 times
Been thanked: 7330 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Fénix » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:07 pm

Exactly! So far the business looks even better than Wenger's Arsenal policy between 2006-2014, but trophies are precisely what's missing to close this circle of great business within the club.

This season and next 2 years will tell us where exactly Dortmund stand in both German and European frames. Without results all this will mean literally nothing because even Porto and Benfica have achieved in this decade a lot of domestic and European success and near that have made a giga profit from selling their best players and unproven talents.
User avatar
Fénix
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 12224
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Croatia
National Flag:
Croatia
Has thanked: 5444 times
Been thanked: 5083 times
Gender: Male

Borussia Dortmund

Postby #12 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:13 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
With zero titles won


And destroying your precious Niko this year...

Also, they won Pokal 2 years ago - get your facts straight!
Summer 2020: Hasan, show us your weakness!!
User avatar
#12
Chief Critic
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 26889
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 1:31 pm
National Flag:
Germany
Has thanked: 1348 times
Been thanked: 6023 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:24 pm

Sometimes we have to sell so when we do sell, it's good to see we're doing it right. Can't wait to see how we invest the money in the summer. Probably Thorgan Hazard will come which would be a great transfer. But I also hope we can look for some creative midfielder to compete with Dahoud/Delaney.
User avatar
Borusse
Borussia Dortmund Supporter
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 4591
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:07 am
National Flag:
Poland
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 1433 times
Gender: Male

Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby MUTU » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 pm

30GB free cloud storage. Click here for the referral.
User avatar
MUTU
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 49344
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: L-Imqabba, Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 8964 times
Been thanked: 14643 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

PreviousNext

Return to Football in Germany

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests