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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby ottackon » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:21 pm

RedQueen wrote:Favre is out. Apparently Nice categorically said no, at least that's the official version confirmed by Favre's agent and published on Nice's website.

Kicker now saying it's gonna be either Stöger or Bosz.

Yeah I read that too, but official statements mean nothing in football, Favre's dream was always to coach a big German club.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:46 pm

RedQueen wrote:To me it looks like Tuchel has lost the backing of the old guard, Schmelzer and Sahin in particular, and maybe also Reus.

I have another idea of what's happening. There's an absolutely disgusting mud-fight going on in Dortmund. I don't remember having seen anything like it in the BuLi in recent years. After his interview laying open the infamous "dissent", Watzke unleashes his media bloodhounds (Röckenhaus, Dersch and Hennerke) on Tuchel to completely damage his reputation with anonymous player statements, not a word from the club to contain the damage done, and Sahin appears in ASS with a dubious interview. After the Pokal final, Schmelzer and Sahin are whining on public TV because Sahin didn't play in the cup final ("my momma was in the stadium and she was totally shocked!!!"), which is obviously totally ok with Watzke who does nothing to call them back in line.

Two days later Tuchel is fired after a 20 minute discussion (taking place in the hotel where they stayed when the bomb attack happened!) even though "open conversations" about his future were assured. The club releases a press statement saying that the club won't give any details on reasons, half an hour later Watzke publishes an "open letter" (complete with an English version to make sure everyone abroad will read it, too) that reads like a damning employment reference letter.

Schmelzer is the captain but he's far from undisputed with respect to his performances, and Sahin is even more replaceable. The key players this season were Aubameyang, Dembele, Guerreiro, Pulisic, Weigl, later Bartra etc. None of whom seem to have a problem with Tuchel. I remember Klopp saying at his departure that if he stays a lot more things would have to change than if he leaves. The way it looks to me Tuchel attempted an overhaul and pissed off the old guard among both players and staff. If I were a coach I'd think twice before getting myself into such a situation. If I can't bench players who aren't good enough because of their merits five years ago, and if I can't change procedures because the CEO will side with the old guard, then maybe it's better not to take that job.

That's why I said the agent's explanation that Nice refused to let Favre leave is the official version. I find it curious that only yesterday it was reported that Nice will give it time until Monday. Maybe BVB actually had a verbal agreement with Favre and after all the mud-slinging and players interviews Favre reconsidered. All he had to do was to go to his already reluctant boss at Nice and ask him to put a definite end to it.

Interesting analysis. Either way, it seems BVB are fucked. Regardless of who's to blame, they won't get a coach as good as Tuchel. Probably their era as second BuLi team has ended for good, and now it's RBLs time.

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:02 pm

RedQueen wrote:To me it looks like Tuchel has lost the backing of the old guard, Schmelzer and Sahin in particular, and maybe also Reus.

I have another idea of what's happening. There's an absolutely disgusting mud-fight going on in Dortmund. I don't remember having seen anything like it in the BuLi in recent years. After his interview laying open the infamous "dissent", Watzke unleashes his media bloodhounds (Röckenhaus, Dersch and Hennerke) on Tuchel to completely damage his reputation with anonymous player statements, not a word from the club to contain the damage done, and Sahin appears in ASS with a dubious interview. After the Pokal final, Schmelzer and Sahin are whining on public TV because Sahin didn't play in the cup final ("my momma was in the stadium and she was totally shocked!!!"), which is obviously totally ok with Watzke who does nothing to call them back in line.

Two days later Tuchel is fired after a 20 minute discussion (taking place in the hotel where they stayed when the bomb attack happened!) even though "open conversations" about his future were assured. The club releases a press statement saying that the club won't give any details on reasons, half an hour later Watzke publishes an "open letter" (complete with an English version to make sure everyone abroad will read it, too) that reads like a damning employment reference letter.

Schmelzer is the captain but he's far from undisputed with respect to his performances, and Sahin is even more replaceable. The key players this season were Aubameyang, Dembele, Guerreiro, Pulisic, Weigl, later Bartra etc. None of whom seem to have a problem with Tuchel. I remember Klopp saying at his departure that if he stays a lot more things would have to change than if he leaves. The way it looks to me Tuchel attempted an overhaul and pissed off the old guard among both players and staff. If I were a coach I'd think twice before getting myself into such a situation. If I can't bench players who aren't good enough because of their merits five years ago, and if I can't change procedures because the CEO will side with the old guard, then maybe it's better not to take that job.

That's why I said the agent's explanation that Nice refused to let Favre leave is the official version. I find it curious that only yesterday it was reported that Nice will give it time until Monday. Maybe BVB actually had a verbal agreement with Favre and after all the mud-slinging and players interviews Favre reconsidered. All he had to do was to go to his already reluctant boss at Nice and ask him to put a definite end to it.


I am not so sure it's a old player v. new player thing. Tuchel has actually completed a revamp of the 2013 team. Maybe there might be some kind of an attachment by the older players to an older way of doing things, but it seems a little far-fetched to suggest that the old players simply wanted to keep their place.

Clearly though something broke down massively, and we will only hear about it after a long time.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:35 pm

^Well, the critical statements in public came from Schmelzer, Sahin, Kuba and Reus. Kuba has left, Sahin has barely played this season, and the only reason Schmelzer hasn't been benched is that Guerreiro was needed in midfield. In addition, Weidenfeller has already lost his place, so has Subotic. Schmelzer, Sahin and Reus are on the team council.

Bürki has publicly said he wants Tuchel to stay, Dembele, Auba and Pulisic were very warmly celebrating together with Tuchel after the Pokal final, and Bartra has sent this twitter message:

Can't see tweet? Click here!

I've seen or heard nothing from the old guard, except Schmelzer saying in Ruhrnachrichten that Tuchel is gone and there no point in "fueling the fire with more gasoline".


E: It's clear that some players approached Watzke with complaints about Tuchel's methods. At least the meditation sessions and the greeting dances, that much has been made public. Put 1 and 1 together who those players might have been. With respect to the chief scout, I've read that Tuchel wanted him to take things like body language and personality into consideration when scouting, and that was part of their disagreement.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby pyrasur » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:17 pm

Not sure either side covers themselves in glory here. Tuchel doesn't sound very good at the people management aspect, and it sounds like he was ousted by some has-beens who found an ally in Watzke who is no great club director either.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby DRvad14 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:53 pm

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Mani » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:29 pm


Watzke is so clueless :lol:
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:00 pm

They must think they're really on to something or have the next big thing ready for them....
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby FishBowl » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:08 pm

Knowing the deep thinker Watzke is he looked at the two clubs in the Europa final and said. I'll offer whomever loses our job. With his logic being "If he got Ajax there he must be great!"
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Mani » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:53 pm

According to Ajax fans, Bosz plays 4-3-3 with one player being a deep lying playmaker. So assuming Aubameayng stays at Dortmund I guess they would play like this

Reus-Aubameayng-Dembele
Götze-Weigl-Dahoud

With Weigl as deep lying playmaker obviously
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:55 pm

Mani wrote:According to Ajax fans, Bosz plays 4-3-3 with one player being a deep lying playmaker. So assuming Aubameayng stays at Dortmund I guess they would play like this

Reus-Aubameayng-Dembele
Götze-Weigl-Dahoud

With Weigl as deep lying playmaker obviously

That IS basically how Tuchel himself played on 2015-2016. Kagawa for Götze, Gündogan for Dahoud and Mkhitaryan for Dembele. Götze and Dahoud are very similar for Kagawa and Gündogan. It's Dembele and Mkhitaryan where the style change is.

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:46 pm

RedQueen wrote:^Well, the critical statements in public came from Schmelzer, Sahin, Kuba and Reus. Kuba has left, Sahin has barely played this season, and the only reason Schmelzer hasn't been benched is that Guerreiro was needed in midfield. In addition, Weidenfeller has already lost his place, so has Subotic. Schmelzer, Sahin and Reus are on the team council.

Bürki has publicly said he wants Tuchel to stay, Dembele, Auba and Pulisic were very warmly celebrating together with Tuchel after the Pokal final, and Bartra has sent this twitter message:

Can't see tweet? Click here!

I've seen or heard nothing from the old guard, except Schmelzer saying in Ruhrnachrichten that Tuchel is gone and there no point in "fueling the fire with more gasoline".


E: It's clear that some players approached Watzke with complaints about Tuchel's methods. At least the meditation sessions and the greeting dances, that much has been made public. Put 1 and 1 together who those players might have been. With respect to the chief scout, I've read that Tuchel wanted him to take things like body language and personality into consideration when scouting, and that was part of their disagreement.


My point is that by and large he has cleared out the team from the dead wood, the older players who could no longer cut it. He already did it last season and they played great and seemed happy with their season. So unless Schmelzer and Reus feel extremely connected to their older buddies, it made no sense for them to take a stand against a coach that was evolving the team.

However, what is possible is that Tuchel simply is a different coach that they have been used to and maybe they couldn't understand some tactics or man management from him. I think this is what could explain a new player v. old player break, rather than them standing up for their former teammates.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:52 pm

endrity wrote:
RedQueen wrote:^Well, the critical statements in public came from Schmelzer, Sahin, Kuba and Reus. Kuba has left, Sahin has barely played this season, and the only reason Schmelzer hasn't been benched is that Guerreiro was needed in midfield. In addition, Weidenfeller has already lost his place, so has Subotic. Schmelzer, Sahin and Reus are on the team council.

Bürki has publicly said he wants Tuchel to stay, Dembele, Auba and Pulisic were very warmly celebrating together with Tuchel after the Pokal final, and Bartra has sent this twitter message:

Can't see tweet? Click here!

I've seen or heard nothing from the old guard, except Schmelzer saying in Ruhrnachrichten that Tuchel is gone and there no point in "fueling the fire with more gasoline".


E: It's clear that some players approached Watzke with complaints about Tuchel's methods. At least the meditation sessions and the greeting dances, that much has been made public. Put 1 and 1 together who those players might have been. With respect to the chief scout, I've read that Tuchel wanted him to take things like body language and personality into consideration when scouting, and that was part of their disagreement.


My point is that by and large he has cleared out the team from the dead wood, the older players who could no longer cut it. He already did it last season and they played great and seemed happy with their season. So unless Schmelzer and Reus feel extremely connected to their older buddies, it made no sense for them to take a stand against a coach that was evolving the team.

However, what is possible is that Tuchel simply is a different coach that they have been used to and maybe they couldn't understand some tactics or man management from him. I think this is what could explain a new player v. old player break, rather than them standing up for their former teammates.

Schmelzer and Reus sat with Sahin in ASS (a sports program on German public television) the night of the Pokal final whining how they couldn't understand why Sahin wasn't in the squad. Schmelzer said he was "shocked" about the decision and went as far as publicly putting down other players saying that Sahin is the only one who can play Weigl's position "at least as good as Weigl". Reus supported him.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Burko » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:34 pm

Wow.
Something is rotten in the state of Dortmund.
All we need is number 10......and Chámes Rodríguéz
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby pyrasur » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:28 pm

Well Sabin was the one leaking to the press right? From what I understood Tuchel knew and decided if he's heading out might as well remove Sahin from the squad as an example of what will happen to players who try to manipulate the coach through the press.
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