FC Bayern Forum

PunkCapitalist · by **PunkCapitalist** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:02 am

Thiago has the intelligence to be a regista, i suspect he is just not given the position because Carlo deems his contributions up field too valuable to lose, and we don't really have a pure creative Midfielder to play upfield.

And no... It's not about Thiago making the final pass. It's about Thiago being the one who makes the most passes per game. I'm too lazy to look it up at 12 midnight, but I'm pretty confident in saying g it regardless. Thiago currently is the one through whom all our game moves.

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Dumbledore7 · by **Dumbledore7** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:05 am

Jorge wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Love it when I get that reply, means the other guy arguing is grasping at straws. Inferiority complex to the maximum.

Frankly I quit already. After I read that Ancelotti already built a team around Thiago my vision started to blur. Maybe that's the reason why we need those 90th minute lucky strikes to beat the likes of Ingolstadt.

Well no to be fair PunkCapitalist's made a fair point. Maybe not necessarily that it's built around Thiago (I doubt Ancelotti is capable of building anything around anyone), but indeed he's where most of our good plays go through. It's the other guys who's being a prick, we were having a fine discussion before it got to petty flaming.

Thiagoalcantara · by **Thiagoalcantara** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:06 am

Thiago will probably be regista next season when Alonso leaves, unless someone new comes in.

Ideally, Thiago moves back and a new attacker comes into Munich.

Honestly, it makes no sense. Thiago can do everything better than kroos outside of shooting technique/power and set piece delivery.

Thiago's defensive awareness has improved quite a lot since his Barca days and if anything is a better contributor than Kroos ever was defensively.

Jorge · by **Jorge** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:07 am

I go back to a basic question that I asked a few times in this discussion: it seems to me that Thiago is judged by the good things he would have done (if he wasn't injured, if he would have played the world cup, if he would have won the Champions League, if he was played as a regista, and so on) but the others (Gotze, Kroos) are judged by their shortcomings while they did it.

PunkCapitalist · by **PunkCapitalist** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:07 am

Jorge wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Love it when I get that reply, means the other guy arguing is grasping at straws. Inferiority complex to the maximum.

Frankly I quit already. After I read that Ancelotti already built a team around Thiago my vision started to blur. Maybe that's the reason why we need those 90th minute lucky strikes to beat the likes of Ingolstadt.

Oh come on... This is a civilized conversation and you saying that is the equivalent to turning the table and throwing all the pieces to the ground (the exact phrase abandoned me...)

The reason we're struggling to create in the final third is that we don't have enough attacking creativity. Since Ribery's injury/decline we are missing creativity simply because Lewy, Müller and Robben are goalscorers primarily, and not creators per se. We lack a KDB, Özil, or someone like that, not a DLPM.

We are not struggling to dictate from deep, far from it. What we are struggling in is breaking down defenses at the very last quarter of the pitch.

And no, I'm not judging Thiago on what he could have been. I'm judging him on what he did in 2013-2014 (his injury left a very obvious void in our game back then) and what he is doing now. Thiago has also proven that he can dictate play from the regista role, it just has been restricted to a handful of games he has been asked to do so. You fail to recognize what he HAS done, which is the source of my quarrel.

I'm not judging Kroos on what he didn't do either, don't know why you would say that. I just don't think he is as influential as you make him up to be. In my view, a Modric+Weigl+James midfield would be better for Madrid than the current Casemiro+Kroos+Modric.

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Thiagoalcantara · by **Thiagoalcantara** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:11 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Love it when I get that reply, means the other guy arguing is grasping at straws. Inferiority complex to the maximum.

Frankly I quit already. After I read that Ancelotti already built a team around Thiago my vision started to blur. Maybe that's the reason why we need those 90th minute lucky strikes to beat the likes of Ingolstadt.

Oh come on... This is a civilized conversation and you saying that is the equivalent to turn the table and throw all the pieces to the ground (the exact phrase left me...)

The reason we're struggling to create in the final third is that we don't have enough attacking creativity. Since Ribery's injury/decline we are missing creativity simply because Lewy, Müller and Robben are goalscorers primarily, and not creators per se. We lack a KDB, Özil, or someone like that, not a DLPM.

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EXACTLY.

AS I SAID LAST SUMMER TOO. BAyern's attack was not good enough to be consider elite in Europe. THe team needed a creative technical player last summer, rather than Renato Sanches. This team has relied too much on Robbery in the past and Douglas Costa last season. As soon as Douglas's drops in form, the goals really dried up a lot.

Lewandowski couldnt create for himself and Muller just sucked for a good year now. Fans were too busy looking at Muller+Lewandowski goal total thinking the overall attack was good.

Jorge · by **Jorge** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:11 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:Well no to be fair PunkCapitalist's made a fair point. Maybe not necessarily that it's built around Thiago (I doubt Ancelotti is capable of building anything around anyone), but indeed he's where most of our good plays go through. It's the other guys who's being a prick, we were having a fine discussion before it got to petty flaming.

I actually consider Thiago an excellent player. I challenge anyone to find anything negative that I ever said about him before this discussion, even now I have not said that he is a bad player.

In my opinion to say that Ancelotti has built a team around Thiago is like saying a team has been built around Lewandowski or Robben. It is not possible.

Today's Bayern is built around Alonso, more for bad than for good.

Dumbledore7 · by **Dumbledore7** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:13 am

Thiagoalcantara wrote:2014? You forget the RAFA ERA and even this season where RM was expose so much in Europe.

WHERE EVERY MADRID FAN wanted KROOS GONE.

If Kroos is as good as you say reading the game defensively and pressing, etc

WHY DA FUQ would Zidane play Casimero and Lucas, when he had Bale, James, Kovaic and Isco?

I said after 2014 yes? After Benitez got sacked and it's handed to Zidane. Benitez couldn't space the midfield for shit, of course it was a mess. Also haha basing judgment on Madridistas' opinion? Most of them are idiots, and they're regretting that now.

Maybe learn to read? I wrote very clearly that Kroos reads the game, tunneling it to Casemiro who can make the tackle because he can't. Zidane smartly plays Casemiro to do all the dirty work, Kroos defends when in possession through reading and Modric chases down all the other loose balls. What does it have to do with James and Isco lol? They just don't fit the system, even though just recently Isco is being experimented on the Thiago mezz'ala role.

Also maybe try not using too many caps when talking to me, makes it look less intelligent.

Dumbledore7 · by **Dumbledore7** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:17 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:The reason we're struggling to create in the final third is that we don't have enough attacking creativity. Since Ribery's injury/decline we are missing creativity simply because Lewy, Müller and Robben are goalscorers primarily, and not creators per se. We lack a KDB, Özil, or someone like that, not a DLPM.

Then this is also another reason that Thiago is important for us at the moment in the final third. He's playing the supposed KDB/Özil role when he should be a Kroos. We haven't seen him as a true conductor for a prolonged period of time, therefore comparisons with Kroos, who has perfected the art for 2 years is null.

Jorge · by **Jorge** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:20 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Love it when I get that reply, means the other guy arguing is grasping at straws. Inferiority complex to the maximum.

Frankly I quit already. After I read that Ancelotti already built a team around Thiago my vision started to blur. Maybe that's the reason why we need those 90th minute lucky strikes to beat the likes of Ingolstadt.

Oh come on... This is a civilized conversation and you saying that is the equivalent to turning the table and throwing all the pieces to the ground (the exact phrase abandoned me...)

The reason we're struggling to create in the final third is that we don't have enough attacking creativity. Since Ribery's injury/decline we are missing creativity simply because Lewy, Müller and Robben are goalscorers primarily, and not creators per se. We lack a KDB, Özil, or someone like that, not a DLPM.

We are not struggling to dictate from deep, far from it. What we are struggling in is breaking down defenses at the very last quarter of the pitch.

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You are reading it the wrong way: the only thing I am saying is that Thiago does not have the structured discipline to pull the strings of a team from midfield, it is not his nature to retain the ball and distribute, he charges forward with too much risk all the time. He is more the working ant than the brain orchestrating the transitions.

Jorge · by **Jorge** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:24 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:In my view, a Modric+Weigl+James midfield would be better for Madrid than the current Casemiro+Kroos+Modric.

James?

PunkCapitalist · by **PunkCapitalist** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:24 am

Jorge wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
Jorge wrote:[quote="Dumbledore7"]Love it when I get that reply, means the other guy arguing is grasping at straws. Inferiority complex to the maximum.

Frankly I quit already. After I read that Ancelotti already built a team around Thiago my vision started to blur. Maybe that's the reason why we need those 90th minute lucky strikes to beat the likes of Ingolstadt.

Oh come on... This is a civilized conversation and you saying that is the equivalent to turning the table and throwing all the pieces to the ground (the exact phrase abandoned me...)

The reason we're struggling to create in the final third is that we don't have enough attacking creativity. Since Ribery's injury/decline we are missing creativity simply because Lewy, Müller and Robben are goalscorers primarily, and not creators per se. We lack a KDB, Özil, or someone like that, not a DLPM.

We are not struggling to dictate from deep, far from it. What we are struggling in is breaking down defenses at the very last quarter of the pitch.

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You are reading it the wrong way: the only thing I am saying is that Thiago does not have the structured discipline to pull the strings of a team from midfield, it is not his nature to retain the ball and distribute, he charges forward with too much risk all the time. He is more the working ant than the brain orchestrating the transitions.[/quote]
Well, I disagree. The Thiago as a reckless risktaker is a myth IMO. When he has been asked to perform as a DLPM, he has delivered. He has just not been asked frequently. On a technical and intelligence POV, he has all the tools need and I think that is he's optimal position (and not the 10 he is playing ATM). We need a creative attacker and we need to hand the keys to MF over to Thiago (which he has already taken anyways, btw... I'll look for the number of passes stats as soon as I can).

Yes, James. The reason he doesn't play is that his presence puts in evidence the lack of a capable DM at the base (Casemiro is not good enough technically wise). If Madrid had a WC Busquets-type (which Kroos is not), they would be better served by having a creative CAM in there.

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Thiagoalcantara · by **Thiagoalcantara** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:25 am

You must of not watch RM this season in Europe.

EVERY GAME they get outrun in the midfield

Dumbledore7 · by **Dumbledore7** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:30 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Well, I disagree. The Thiago as a reckless risktaker is a myth IMO. When he has been asked to perform as a DLPM, he has delivered. He has just not been asked frequently. On a technical and intelligence POV, he has all the tools need and I think that is he's optimal position (and not the 10 he is playing ATM). We need a creative attacker and we need to hand the keys to MF over to Thiago (which he has already taken anyways, btw... I'll look for the number of passes stats as soon as I can).

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Well exactly, if we bring that back to the comparison with Kroos, who has played in that role and establishing himself as the best in the world at it, there should really be no comparison. I have no doubt Thiago has the quality. What I doubt is whether or not Ancelotti will use him properly. He has indeed worked well as regista in the 3-4 games we saw of it. I reckon he should be somewhere in between. A deep #8 of some sort.

Dumbledore7 · by **Dumbledore7** » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:34 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, James. The reason he doesn't play is that his presence puts in evidence the lack of a capable DM at the base (Casemiro is not good enough technically wise). If Madrid had a WC Busquets-type (which Kroos is not), they would be better served by having a creative CAM in there.

This can be another interesting point of discussion. I actually have no doubt that playing Kroos as a pivot will work fine and he'll be world class at it as well, but that requires a Vidal/Sanches type player in front of him. Zidane's a coward for not dropping such an old-school destroyer. Maybe because he'd been so well-covered by Makelele all those years.

Pep tried it with a triangle of Thiago-Kroos-Schweinsteiger but quickly dismissed it because Lahm was far more complete for the CDM slot back then. Kroos is a much more accomplished player now.

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