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Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

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Who is better?

Thomas Müller
16
55%
Philippe Coutinho
13
45%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:49 am

MUTU wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:Since Müller opened his mouth

Can you please provide us with a link to a news article containing a quote from Müller "opening his mouth"? As far as I know, the closest indication we have is a quote from Kovac saying that Mueller was not happy with something he had said.

YlonenXabi wrote:BOTH have been playing garbage

Maybe he finally realised that the way to get minutes with Kovac is to play badly, hence he started to purposely play badly. In fact, it seems to have worked, because he's played in 65% of the available playing time since.

Or maybe, you're just biased against him. As per WhoScored ratings on the last 2 matches (the ones where Mueller played a fair amount of minutes), he has the 3rd highest average rating (after Lewandowski and Thiago) out of all players who played in both matches. Before you point towards Mueller's performance, you had better look at the team's performance as a whole first and keep that in perspective. Was he brilliant since allegedly opening his mouth? No. But when you take into perspective the performance from the players around him, then you'll see he wasn't bad, and definitely not "garbage". He had quite a good performance against Olympiakos, for example.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby YlonenXabi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:18 am

MUTU wrote:Or maybe, you're just biased against him. As per WhoScored ratings on the last 2 matches


So you wanna use Whoscored ratings now :)


Whoscored ratings on the WHOLE season put Coutinho as the 3rd best Bayern player this season so far just behind Lewandowski and Gnabry

Müller barely made the Top 15 :shock: :lol:
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby OhioFan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:23 am

YlonenXabi wrote:
MUTU wrote:Or maybe, you're just biased against him. As per WhoScored ratings on the last 2 matches


So you wanna use Whoscored ratings now :)


Whoscored ratings on the WHOLE season put Coutinho as the 3rd best Bayern player this season so far just behind Lewandowski and Gnabry

Müller barely made the Top 15 :shock: :lol:


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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby #12 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:54 am

YlonenXabi wrote:
MUTU wrote:Or maybe, you're just biased against him. As per WhoScored ratings on the last 2 matches


So you wanna use Whoscored ratings now :)


Whoscored ratings on the WHOLE season put Coutinho as the 3rd best Bayern player this season so far just behind Lewandowski and Gnabry

Müller barely made the Top 15 :shock: :lol:


Müller barely gets 3 minutes of playtime for every 15 Coutinho gets...
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby MUTU » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:53 am

YlonenXabi wrote:
MUTU wrote:Or maybe, you're just biased against him. As per WhoScored ratings on the last 2 matches


So you wanna use Whoscored ratings now :)


Whoscored ratings on the WHOLE season put Coutinho as the 3rd best Bayern player this season so far just behind Lewandowski and Gnabry

Müller barely made the Top 15 :shock:

And I explained why. You should only look at ratings where a player has played a considerable amount of time. The problem with WhoScored is that they give a rating to a player even if he played for 5 minutes. And it's not even weighted by the amount of minutes he was on the pitch when they work out the average. As for the rest, they're quite good.

Mueller was good in the last 3 matches.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby bastos80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:51 am

Müller as a sub, Coutinho as a starter.
Should be obvious.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby MUTU » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:01 am

bastos80 wrote:Müller as a sub, Coutinho as a starter.
Should be obvious.

It's definitely not obvious since the exact opposite seems like a no-brainer to me. Mueller is being considerably more effective than Coutinho. I consider this as fact, but I'm open to logical substantiated arguments that suggest otherwise. He is simply scoring and assisting at a more frequent rate than Coutinho while playing only slightly more offensively, tactically (if we're even allowed to use that word when talking about matches under Kovac).

Unless, of course, one wants us to lose so that we get Kovac fired. In that case, bench Lewandowski and Mueller.

2 goals and 5 assists in 419 minutes played since Coutinho joined (1 scorer point every 59.857 minutes played) is nothing to scoff at or deserving being benched. Otherwise we should be discussing benching Lewandowski too because he's not getting scorer points at Mueller's rate despite playing in a more offensive position than anyone else at the club. In that same timeframe, Lewandowski scored 16 goals in 1006 minutes of playing time (1 scorer point every 62.875 minutes)
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby bastos80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:16 am

MUTU wrote:
bastos80 wrote:Müller as a sub, Coutinho as a starter.
Should be obvious.

It's definitely not obvious since the exact opposite seems like a no-brainer to me. Mueller is being considerably more effective than Coutinho. I consider this as fact, but I'm open to logical substantiated arguments that suggest otherwise. He is simply scoring and assisting at a more frequent rate than Coutinho while playing only slightly more offensively, tactically (if we're even allowed to use that word when talking about matches under Kovac).

Unless, of course, one wants us to lose so that we get Kovac fired. In that case, bench Lewandowski and Mueller.


It's pretty obvious to me, simply because Müller is doing fine when he's getting subbed in.
He sits at 3 scorers as a starter and 5 scorers as a substitute... Or in "efficiency" terms: a scorer every 179 minutes vs. a scorer every 25 minutes....
Besides that, Müller averages a 6.71 rating on WhoScored, vs. Coutinho's 7.48 rating.
To me the only question really should be whether Müller or Perisic get the favor when it comes to rotation. In regards to that, I think the answer should quite clearly be Müller.

If Kovac also fails to integrate Coutinho aswell, while the team continues with the shitty performances it displayed since the start of the season (where Müller still played more regularly, by the way. It has been Lewandowski and Lewandowski ONLY who is saving our arse, not Müller), he'll be gone sooner than he can say "nicht meine Schuld" anyways.

If you can't see what value apart from goals and assists Coutinho adds to the team as a number 10, while being played ahead of Müller, I can only advise you to actually watch the game and not just look at the stats afterwards. OK?
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby MUTU » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am

I *am* looking at the matches in fact, rather than look at unweighted average ratings of WhoScored which include performances lasting 5 minutes. I saw Mueller come on and score yesterday and save us from further embarrassment while overtaking Lewandowski in terms of scorer points per minute played, despite playing more defensively than Lewandowski. Should we bench Lewandowski too then? His numbers are also inferior to Mueller's*.

Maybe if Mueller plays more often we wouldn't need Lewandowski to save us because we could potentially be winning more comfortably.

I ask this again: what more can Mueller feasibly do to prove he deserves more playing time this season**? Nobody dared answering this with a rational answer.

*per minute played, naturally.
**I agree, he wasn't good last season, nor was he great this season before Coutinho joined and he had healthy competition.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby bastos80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am

MUTU wrote:I am looking at the matches. I saw Mueller come on and score yesterday and save us from further embarrassment while overtaking Lewandowski in terms of scorer points per minute played, despite playing more defensively than Lewandowski. Should we bench Lewandowski too then?


I've also seen Coutinho playing the pass that actually allowed Müller to score. So what?

You don't seem to understand what I said. Müller is already BENCHED. And he scored after being subbed on, against a tired Bochum squad. That's what a sub should do and he's perfect for that. Thanks for the pro-argument for my point.
If you watched the matches, you would have also noticed that Müller is mostly garbage when he was a starter.

Also Müller hasn't overtaken Lewandowski... do your math again. He still takes 20 minutes more per scorer.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby #12 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:22 pm

And Coutinho is always garbage, regardless of being a starter or not...
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby MUTU » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:28 pm

bastos80 wrote:
MUTU wrote:I am looking at the matches. I saw Mueller come on and score yesterday and save us from further embarrassment while overtaking Lewandowski in terms of scorer points per minute played, despite playing more defensively than Lewandowski. Should we bench Lewandowski too then?


I've also seen Coutinho playing the pass that actually allowed Müller to score. So what?

You don't seem to understand what I said. Müller is already BENCHED. And he scored after being subbed on, against a tired Bochum squad. That's what a sub should do and he's perfect for that. Thanks for the pro-argument for my point.
If you watched the matches, you would have also noticed that Müller is mostly garbage when he was a starter.

Also Müller hasn't overtaken Lewandowski... do your math again. He still takes 20 minutes more per scorer.

I literally already did the maths above (I had edited the post while you were composing your reply). Since signing Coutinho, Mueller has better numbers than Lewandowski.

Also, he has 2 assists in his last 3 starts, not bad at all, especially when talking away matches against Olympiakos and RB Leipzig.

In any case, the amount of minutes he's getting is highly unfair to his effectiveness on the pitch in the little time he's being given.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby bastos80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:50 pm

MUTU wrote:
I ask this again: what more can Mueller feasibly do to prove he deserves more playing time this season**? Nobody dared answering this with a rational answer.

*per minute played, naturally.
**I agree, he wasn't good last season, nor was he great this season before Coutinho joined and he had healthy competition.


And I'll say it again. Play well as a starter for a change. Not like he never got that opportunity.

Maybe if Mueller plays more often we wouldn't need Lewandowski to save us because we could potentially be winning more comfortably.


Well maybe, maybe not. Wasn't the case this season so far as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think it's unfair. What was unfair was the amount of playtime he got last season despite being absolutely rubbish.
Also feels to me that Müller's share of playtime is a little on the rise again anyways.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby MUTU » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm

bastos80 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
I ask this again: what more can Mueller feasibly do to prove he deserves more playing time this season**? Nobody dared answering this with a rational answer.

*per minute played, naturally.
**I agree, he wasn't good last season, nor was he great this season before Coutinho joined and he had healthy competition.


And I'll say it again. Play well as a starter for a change. Not like he never got that opportunity.


He started 2 matches lately and was one of the better performers in each match. In fact, only Lewandowski and Thiago were better on average in those two matches.

Then he was inexplicably dropped again yesterday, but came on and scored the winner.
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Re: Team Coutinho vs Team Müller: Arena

Postby zozon » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:32 pm

Muller is a better player than Iniesta was, according to MUTU.
So yeah - no point in proving anything contra-Muller with MUTU.

Bias is his middle name.

also - Muller having better NUMBERS than Lewandowski this season? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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