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2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:06 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Dude, the 4-2-3-1 was already deployed in the early 90s.

Even Deportivo de la Coruña played 4-2-3-1 quite frequently with Irureta as a coach and either Djalminha or Valeron behind Roy Makaay. They even won La Liga and Copa del Rey not to mention they beat us at Allianz Arena in the Champions League too
So ramsej is right. The only reason Deportivo played 4-2-3-1 was because they were from the future. How else could they have played in the Allianz Arena in 2003? :P
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:01 pm

Nagelsmann working on his contract compensation already…
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:18 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:Dude, the 4-2-3-1 was already deployed in the early 90s.

Even Deportivo de la Coruña played 4-2-3-1 quite frequently with Irureta as a coach and either Djalminha or Valeron behind Roy Makaay. They even won La Liga and Copa del Rey not to mention they beat us at Allianz Arena in the Champions League too
So ramsej is right. The only reason Deportivo played 4-2-3-1 was because they were from the future. How else could they have played in the Allianz Arena in 2003? :P



Who inveted the 4231? wiki

Lillo spent the 1991–92 campaign at Cultural y Deportiva Leonesa, advocating a 4–2–3–1 formation. He became the youngest coach to attain the national coaching badge in Spain.[1] [source]


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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:34 pm

Ottomeister87 wrote:Why all this inventing the game again bs every time. Bayern players have made the coaches change it to 4231 before. They are a scoring machine like that.

Why would you put Gnabry at RWB if his strong points are clearly somewhere else.

Also this 3 atb bs has hardly worked at any club tbh. Leave it just like it is, but strengthen the squad where the pain points are..
To be fair, dominant tactics change and some formations become ineffective and outdated at some points. Still... I don't think either that there is any good reason to abandon 4231 at this point.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Ottomeister87 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:02 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Ottomeister87 wrote:Why all this inventing the game again bs every time. Bayern players have made the coaches change it to 4231 before. They are a scoring machine like that.

Why would you put Gnabry at RWB if his strong points are clearly somewhere else.

Also this 3 atb bs has hardly worked at any club tbh. Leave it just like it is, but strengthen the squad where the pain points are..
To be fair, dominant tactics change and some formations become ineffective and outdated at some points. Still... I don't think either that there is any good reason to abandon 4231 at this point.


Exactly, its not like we get 15 new players this season. Most of them played 4231 their whole career.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:40 pm

I'm not saying 3ATB is really the way to go (nor am I necessarily saying it isn't) but I wouldn't be terribly afraid of it, either...
I don't think we're absolutely where we're in a position where we HAVE to make a big tactical (read: formation, first and foremost) change but at the same time it's worrisome to me when we get the idea that we must be married to 4-2-3-1 in perpetuity and that our squad is "built" for it. IMO it's not so much that our squad is "built for it" or that it plays to their strengths more than anything else that aids that idea but rather just that *we* are most familiar with it as fans so it's difficult to picture any other primary formation. But at the end of the day these guys are professionals at the highest level of the game and I don't think any of them would realistically have any trouble adapting to a new formation in practically no time at all.

Plus, JN himself has said something to the effect of "the formation only really is there on the teamsheet and when you kick off" and this is true. Modern football - especially for a manager like Nagelsmann - is often so fluid with positions that how the team is lined up at kick off really doesn't matter a ton. I mean, even in these past seasons under Flick, try and draw out our formation when the game is actually in play - especially when we have the ball and are in attack. If you tried to put it down on paper I'd imagine you'd find that it's a lot closer to a back-3 (something like 3-2-5) than a traditional back-4 with 4-2-3-1. So it's perhaps not such a huge change to begin with.

So IMO it's not so much about the formation itself per se but rather the concepts and tactics that play into that formation that are the bigger factor. Ask yourself: what have been Bayern's most successful "concepts" in tactics over the past decade or so? Roughly speaking: fast-paced possession, high pressing, playing out of the back, quick switches, overloading wings, direct/vertical passing, and so on. That's painting with a broad brush but the point is this: How many of these qualities/concepts are significantly changed in Nagelsmann's potential 3ATB? I can't say for sure at the moment, but my general feeling is that so long as the core "concepts" remain in place - given that we functionally play as a 3ATB going forward (and more or less back-5 in defense, haha) I suspect the change would not be such a system-shock as expected. Beyond that I also suspect if you went back and looked at some of our players' previous clubs, national team, etc...they probably all have a lot more "non 4-2-3-1" experience than we might expect, maybe.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:15 pm

I've been thinking more about where our players fit and curious to hear your thoughts.

So as the above tweets outlined...Lucas is a great fit as a LCB and IMO Pavard fits great as a RCB too.
I could see Sule filling that RCB role too, and any number of players could be the central defender though I assume as above it'll go to Upamecano, perhaps Nianzou getting some reps there too.
Davies seems basically tailor-made to be a LWB and - for that measure - the same would seem to be true of Kimmich on the right, though he will presumably stay in midfield.
Up top you have Lewy, who IMO will pretty much fit no problem in just about any system. I don't think he'll have any difficulty at all in a potential back-three.
Then guys like Gnabry, Musiala, Muller...IMO all have a great profile for that sort of advanced midfielder, inside forward type of role. Sane has some limited experience there too, but I could see him having good luck in that sort of role as well. It's said that Nagelsmann also may consider Gnabry in the RWB/wide midfielder role. I can see pros and cons for that...he's done it before and he arguably does have a lot of the traits you'd want to see there, but at the same time one of his biggest qualities has been his ability to threaten the goal and that of course takes him further away in that regard.
Similar to Lewy, I think both Goretzka and Kimmich are good enough that they will be able to slot into pretty much any midfield and not have a lot of trouble.

The ones I have bigger question marks about:
Sane to some degree - as above he has limited experience as an inside forward (or even a few cases where Pep deployed him as a wide midfielder/wingback in a back three) but generally benefits more from being played as a wide forward IMO. This might be one of the reasons Pep ultimately favored him a bit less than some of City's other attackers, I dunno...
Coman - if he is here next season - really seems to be the most "pure winger" of the lot. I'm not sure exactly where his best fit would be.
Tolisso/Roca/Cuisance - all just kind of question marks as they are largely unknowns. Well, we know Tolisso at least, but who knows where his fitness levels will be or where his form will be at by the time the season rolls around. If he is fit and in good form then he could still play a useful role. Nagelsmann did seem to rate Roca, so hopefully he will see some strides...Cuisance I see as a lost cause tbh.
Choupo...not sure he still has the mobility to excel in Nagelsmann's system, at least as it has been played in the past...
Ironically, Sarr feels more like a wingback in how he plays than a fullback...I still don't think he's good enough and hope he's sold but TBH he'd probably be a better backup at RWB than he is at RB, though that doesn't say a ton...
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:00 pm

aterford wrote:I've been thinking more about where our players fit and curious to hear your thoughts.

So as the above tweets outlined...Lucas is a great fit as a LCB and IMO Pavard fits great as a RCB too.
I could see Sule filling that RCB role too, and any number of players could be the central defender though I assume as above it'll go to Upamecano, perhaps Nianzou getting some reps there too.
Davies seems basically tailor-made to be a LWB and - for that measure - the same would seem to be true of Kimmich on the right, though he will presumably stay in midfield.
Up top you have Lewy, who IMO will pretty much fit no problem in just about any system. I don't think he'll have any difficulty at all in a potential back-three.
Then guys like Gnabry, Musiala, Muller...IMO all have a great profile for that sort of advanced midfielder, inside forward type of role. Sane has some limited experience there too, but I could see him having good luck in that sort of role as well. It's said that Nagelsmann also may consider Gnabry in the RWB/wide midfielder role. I can see pros and cons for that...he's done it before and he arguably does have a lot of the traits you'd want to see there, but at the same time one of his biggest qualities has been his ability to threaten the goal and that of course takes him further away in that regard.
Similar to Lewy, I think both Goretzka and Kimmich are good enough that they will be able to slot into pretty much any midfield and not have a lot of trouble.

The ones I have bigger question marks about:
Sane to some degree - as above he has limited experience as an inside forward (or even a few cases where Pep deployed him as a wide midfielder/wingback in a back three) but generally benefits more from being played as a wide forward IMO. This might be one of the reasons Pep ultimately favored him a bit less than some of City's other attackers, I dunno...
Coman - if he is here next season - really seems to be the most "pure winger" of the lot. I'm not sure exactly where his best fit would be.
Tolisso/Roca/Cuisance - all just kind of question marks as they are largely unknowns. Well, we know Tolisso at least, but who knows where his fitness levels will be or where his form will be at by the time the season rolls around. If he is fit and in good form then he could still play a useful role. Nagelsmann did seem to rate Roca, so hopefully he will see some strides...Cuisance I see as a lost cause tbh.
Choupo...not sure he still has the mobility to excel in Nagelsmann's system, at least as it has been played in the past...
Ironically, Sarr feels more like a wingback in how he plays than a fullback...I still don't think he's good enough and hope he's sold but TBH he'd probably be a better backup at RWB than he is at RB, though that doesn't say a ton...

I like to think that a switch to 343 opens a lot more oppurtunities for Musiala than in the 4231 we were in. My only concern is the RWB and I am not a big fan of wasting one of our few good forwards in Gnabry in that position.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:28 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:
aterford wrote:I've been thinking more about where our players fit and curious to hear your thoughts.

So as the above tweets outlined...Lucas is a great fit as a LCB and IMO Pavard fits great as a RCB too.
I could see Sule filling that RCB role too, and any number of players could be the central defender though I assume as above it'll go to Upamecano, perhaps Nianzou getting some reps there too.
Davies seems basically tailor-made to be a LWB and - for that measure - the same would seem to be true of Kimmich on the right, though he will presumably stay in midfield.
Up top you have Lewy, who IMO will pretty much fit no problem in just about any system. I don't think he'll have any difficulty at all in a potential back-three.
Then guys like Gnabry, Musiala, Muller...IMO all have a great profile for that sort of advanced midfielder, inside forward type of role. Sane has some limited experience there too, but I could see him having good luck in that sort of role as well. It's said that Nagelsmann also may consider Gnabry in the RWB/wide midfielder role. I can see pros and cons for that...he's done it before and he arguably does have a lot of the traits you'd want to see there, but at the same time one of his biggest qualities has been his ability to threaten the goal and that of course takes him further away in that regard.
Similar to Lewy, I think both Goretzka and Kimmich are good enough that they will be able to slot into pretty much any midfield and not have a lot of trouble.

The ones I have bigger question marks about:
Sane to some degree - as above he has limited experience as an inside forward (or even a few cases where Pep deployed him as a wide midfielder/wingback in a back three) but generally benefits more from being played as a wide forward IMO. This might be one of the reasons Pep ultimately favored him a bit less than some of City's other attackers, I dunno...
Coman - if he is here next season - really seems to be the most "pure winger" of the lot. I'm not sure exactly where his best fit would be.
Tolisso/Roca/Cuisance - all just kind of question marks as they are largely unknowns. Well, we know Tolisso at least, but who knows where his fitness levels will be or where his form will be at by the time the season rolls around. If he is fit and in good form then he could still play a useful role. Nagelsmann did seem to rate Roca, so hopefully he will see some strides...Cuisance I see as a lost cause tbh.
Choupo...not sure he still has the mobility to excel in Nagelsmann's system, at least as it has been played in the past...
Ironically, Sarr feels more like a wingback in how he plays than a fullback...I still don't think he's good enough and hope he's sold but TBH he'd probably be a better backup at RWB than he is at RB, though that doesn't say a ton...

I like to think that a switch to 343 opens a lot more oppurtunities for Musiala than in the 4231 we were in. My only concern is the RWB and I am not a big fan of wasting one of our few good forwards in Gnabry in that position.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:04 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:
aterford wrote:I've been thinking more about where our players fit and curious to hear your thoughts.

So as the above tweets outlined...Lucas is a great fit as a LCB and IMO Pavard fits great as a RCB too.
I could see Sule filling that RCB role too, and any number of players could be the central defender though I assume as above it'll go to Upamecano, perhaps Nianzou getting some reps there too.
Davies seems basically tailor-made to be a LWB and - for that measure - the same would seem to be true of Kimmich on the right, though he will presumably stay in midfield.
Up top you have Lewy, who IMO will pretty much fit no problem in just about any system. I don't think he'll have any difficulty at all in a potential back-three.
Then guys like Gnabry, Musiala, Muller...IMO all have a great profile for that sort of advanced midfielder, inside forward type of role. Sane has some limited experience there too, but I could see him having good luck in that sort of role as well. It's said that Nagelsmann also may consider Gnabry in the RWB/wide midfielder role. I can see pros and cons for that...he's done it before and he arguably does have a lot of the traits you'd want to see there, but at the same time one of his biggest qualities has been his ability to threaten the goal and that of course takes him further away in that regard.
Similar to Lewy, I think both Goretzka and Kimmich are good enough that they will be able to slot into pretty much any midfield and not have a lot of trouble.

The ones I have bigger question marks about:
Sane to some degree - as above he has limited experience as an inside forward (or even a few cases where Pep deployed him as a wide midfielder/wingback in a back three) but generally benefits more from being played as a wide forward IMO. This might be one of the reasons Pep ultimately favored him a bit less than some of City's other attackers, I dunno...
Coman - if he is here next season - really seems to be the most "pure winger" of the lot. I'm not sure exactly where his best fit would be.
Tolisso/Roca/Cuisance - all just kind of question marks as they are largely unknowns. Well, we know Tolisso at least, but who knows where his fitness levels will be or where his form will be at by the time the season rolls around. If he is fit and in good form then he could still play a useful role. Nagelsmann did seem to rate Roca, so hopefully he will see some strides...Cuisance I see as a lost cause tbh.
Choupo...not sure he still has the mobility to excel in Nagelsmann's system, at least as it has been played in the past...
Ironically, Sarr feels more like a wingback in how he plays than a fullback...I still don't think he's good enough and hope he's sold but TBH he'd probably be a better backup at RWB than he is at RB, though that doesn't say a ton...

I like to think that a switch to 343 opens a lot more oppurtunities for Musiala than in the 4231 we were in. My only concern is the RWB and I am not a big fan of wasting one of our few good forwards in Gnabry in that position.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:06 pm

#12 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:[quote="aterford"]I've been thinking more about where our players fit and curious to hear your thoughts.

So as the above tweets outlined...Lucas is a great fit as a LCB and IMO Pavard fits great as a RCB too.
I could see Sule filling that RCB role too, and any number of players could be the central defender though I assume as above it'll go to Upamecano, perhaps Nianzou getting some reps there too.
Davies seems basically tailor-made to be a LWB and - for that measure - the same would seem to be true of Kimmich on the right, though he will presumably stay in midfield.
Up top you have Lewy, who IMO will pretty much fit no problem in just about any system. I don't think he'll have any difficulty at all in a potential back-three.
Then guys like Gnabry, Musiala, Muller...IMO all have a great profile for that sort of advanced midfielder, inside forward type of role. Sane has some limited experience there too, but I could see him having good luck in that sort of role as well. It's said that Nagelsmann also may consider Gnabry in the RWB/wide midfielder role. I can see pros and cons for that...he's done it before and he arguably does have a lot of the traits you'd want to see there, but at the same time one of his biggest qualities has been his ability to threaten the goal and that of course takes him further away in that regard.
Similar to Lewy, I think both Goretzka and Kimmich are good enough that they will be able to slot into pretty much any midfield and not have a lot of trouble.

The ones I have bigger question marks about:
Sane to some degree - as above he has limited experience as an inside forward (or even a few cases where Pep deployed him as a wide midfielder/wingback in a back three) but generally benefits more from being played as a wide forward IMO. This might be one of the reasons Pep ultimately favored him a bit less than some of City's other attackers, I dunno...
Coman - if he is here next season - really seems to be the most "pure winger" of the lot. I'm not sure exactly where his best fit would be.
Tolisso/Roca/Cuisance - all just kind of question marks as they are largely unknowns. Well, we know Tolisso at least, but who knows where his fitness levels will be or where his form will be at by the time the season rolls around. If he is fit and in good form then he could still play a useful role. Nagelsmann did seem to rate Roca, so hopefully he will see some strides...Cuisance I see as a lost cause tbh.
Choupo...not sure he still has the mobility to excel in Nagelsmann's system, at least as it has been played in the past...
Ironically, Sarr feels more like a wingback in how he plays than a fullback...I still don't think he's good enough and hope he's sold but TBH he'd probably be a better backup at RWB than he is at RB, though that doesn't say a ton...

I like to think that a switch to 343 opens a lot more oppurtunities for Musiala than in the 4231 we were in. My only concern is the RWB and I am not a big fan of wasting one of our few good forwards in Gnabry in that position.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:19 pm

We‘re getting laughed at if anything…
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:23 am

I still can't understand what would make Gnabry a good fullback.

His best attributes are finishing, long range shot and probably 1v1s. He plays his best when he is near or in the box. He is not a defender and by playing full back he'd spend most of the time far from the areas where he is more effective.


He could play that role occasionally in order to accommodate more attacking players under very specific circumstances, but not as a permanent or frequent solution.
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am

Maybe we could keep Nuebel and play Neuer as RWB?
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Re: 2021/22 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:I still can't understand what would make Gnabry a good fullback.

His best attributes are finishing, long range shot and probably 1v1s. He plays his best when he is near or in the box. He is not a defender and by playing full back he'd spend most of the time far from the areas where he is more effective.


He could play that role occasionally in order to accommodate more attacking players under very specific circumstances, but not as a permanent or frequent solution.

These are my feelings exactly! Frankly in my opinion if there was anyone who would take over for Lewa it would be Gnabry as well. I have no doubt that if he was healthy to play PSG last season he would have started as the #9.
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