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2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:51 am

YlonenXabi wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:I believe you speak like that cause you come from a Spanish background... and you guys don't give too much attention to that part of the game.
At least in Bayern's case we should at least train how to defend them properly since scoring for us is not a big issue



No, it has nothing to do with being Spanish because here it works the same way

Whenever you've got a team with poor individual quality you still need to come up with a game plan and a way to score goals. Those sort of teams know they won't be able to create many goal chances every game, so they will put special effort on training set pieces.


I don't even think you need to know too much about football to see this. You're always gonna try to build a system based on your team's strengths.


Say you are a coach and your team is full of above average technically gifted players. Then it would make sense to base your tactics and gameplan around those players. You might dedicate most of your training sessions to develop a possession based style.

On the contrary, if most of your players can't even kick a ball properly then you might need to find alternate solutions and it would make zero sense to spend too much time playing "rondos" or possession based drills in trainings.

Instead you would want your players to find easiest ways of scoring goals. And set pieces or crosses are probably the most effective way of scoring goals for weaker teams.




Just remind that you have limited time available for training sessions and can't train thoroughly every aspect of the football game. Especially this year with one game every 3 days and no pre season.

We could allocate more time for set pieces, but that would mean less time for build up, high press, counter press, etc
But most of this still works badly currently... I mean I seriously wonder why there is NO improvement AT ALL... The same stupid losses, weird passes, abysmal defending... There has to be SOME sort of change...
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:25 pm

so when will we "ANALze " and fix the defense? swear we heard it before
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:28 pm

DRvad14 wrote:so when will we "ANALze " and fix the defense? swear we heard it before
Can't see tweet? Click here!
We won‘t fix this... It‘s been going on way too long... And it is the reason we‘ll end this season trophyless...

I hope we can fix this, but as good as our midfield is on offense, I think it’s part of the problem and the reason I want Camavinga or a similar player...
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:36 pm

its fixable though don't you think?
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:56 pm

DRvad14 wrote:its fixable though don't you think?
Dunno... Thought so too, but as long as it‘s been going on now... I mean, most problems are fixable - just not by everyone... And it‘s becoming more and more apparent, that in our current setup... Maybe not?
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:59 pm

^and who is responsible for that ?
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:04 pm

#12 wrote:
DRvad14 wrote:so when will we "ANALze " and fix the defense? swear we heard it before
Can't see tweet? Click here!
We won‘t fix this... It‘s been going on way too long... And it is the reason we‘ll end this season trophyless...

I hope we can fix this, but as good as our midfield is on offense, I think it’s part of the problem and the reason I want Camavinga or a similar player...


It's certainly a problem (the defending) but this is where I can't see it regarding Camavinga (or whoever): I just haven't seen many situations at all where it's been a failing on the part of our midfield that's caused us trouble on defense this season. That was often the case in the past (for some of the Pep-years, for example) but by and large this season our troubles on defense have been caused by just one or two things: Defenders playing too high and/or failing to track back/getting drawn out of position, or just simple individual errors on defense. But I just haven't been able to identify too many situations at all where more 'steel' in our midfield would prevent those problems we've seen with our defense. We don't really struggle with ball-recoveries, tackling, breaking up runs, intercepting/blocking passes etc in midfield; I'm not sure that improving in those categories really changes a ton on the defensive end right now.

Probably wouldn't hurt, but right now we've got enough errors/gaffes amongst our defenders that we often simply need to be able to "do more" on offense, so replacing a midfielder for a "more defensive" one might well end up as a net loss in that it perhaps wouldn't improve our defense as much as it would hamper our attack.

All that a long way to say: I think that unless these specific errors with our *defenders* are first ironed out, adding a player like Camavinga or Zakaria or whoever to give us more "toughness" or control or whatever in midfield probably doesn't change a ton for us right now. IF we can iron out the defensive errors and find that now it's lack of midfield control/dominance putting us in bad positions, then sure, but not sure that is the case at the moment.
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:37 am

aterford wrote:
#12 wrote:
DRvad14 wrote:so when will we "ANALze " and fix the defense? swear we heard it before
Can't see tweet? Click here!
We won‘t fix this... It‘s been going on way too long... And it is the reason we‘ll end this season trophyless...

I hope we can fix this, but as good as our midfield is on offense, I think it’s part of the problem and the reason I want Camavinga or a similar player...


It's certainly a problem (the defending) but this is where I can't see it regarding Camavinga (or whoever): I just haven't seen many situations at all where it's been a failing on the part of our midfield that's caused us trouble on defense this season. That was often the case in the past (for some of the Pep-years, for example) but by and large this season our troubles on defense have been caused by just one or two things: Defenders playing too high and/or failing to track back/getting drawn out of position, or just simple individual errors on defense. But I just haven't been able to identify too many situations at all where more 'steel' in our midfield would prevent those problems we've seen with our defense. We don't really struggle with ball-recoveries, tackling, breaking up runs, intercepting/blocking passes etc in midfield; I'm not sure that improving in those categories really changes a ton on the defensive end right now.

Probably wouldn't hurt, but right now we've got enough errors/gaffes amongst our defenders that we often simply need to be able to "do more" on offense, so replacing a midfielder for a "more defensive" one might well end up as a net loss in that it perhaps wouldn't improve our defense as much as it would hamper our attack.

All that a long way to say: I think that unless these specific errors with our *defenders* are first ironed out, adding a player like Camavinga or Zakaria or whoever to give us more "toughness" or control or whatever in midfield probably doesn't change a ton for us right now. IF we can iron out the defensive errors and find that now it's lack of midfield control/dominance putting us in bad positions, then sure, but not sure that is the case at the moment.
Me neither, but the aforementioned problems to fix this are undeniable by now... And the only thing in our setup compared to last summer that changed is the DM...
Not wanting to start another fluke/luck discussion with the CL but I think we can all agree that even without luck and on our worst day, we never had a defense as bad as in 90-95% of games this season...

And whenever we tried to play more defensively, we suffered bigtime on attack and STILL were kinda lucky to take away a win (Augsburg/Hertha)...
All this to say: it won’t change... We have to live with this and the titles it‘ll cost us now...
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:36 am

#12 wrote:Me neither, but the aforementioned problems to fix this are undeniable by now... And the only thing in our setup compared to last summer that changed is the DM...
Not wanting to start another fluke/luck discussion with the CL but I think we can all agree that even without luck and on our worst day, we never had a defense as bad as in 90-95% of games this season...

And whenever we tried to play more defensively, we suffered bigtime on attack and STILL were kinda lucky to take away a win (Augsburg/Hertha)...
All this to say: it won’t change... We have to live with this and the titles it‘ll cost us now...


Take this with a grain of salt as I haven't checked the stats in a few weeks, but earlier in the season there actually *was* some reason to believe our defense was at least roughly "as bad" last year. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say...the difference in numbers between this season and last season has not been as great as the difference we've seen on the pitch. Again, not the most current, but earlier in the year our xGagainst between this season and last season were remarkably similar. And so one really might say...last year we just had a lot more balls break our way, or didn't get punished as frequently for obvious gaffes (Like, Alaba's pass straight to Mbappe I think it was - comes to mind).

And so that's not necessarily to say we were "lucky" last year nor that all of this year's problems can come down to just being "unlucky," but I also don't think we've made any particularly fundamental changes in our approach to defense compared to last season. Football is of course a low-scoring game by nature, and in any given match there's going to be a number of knife-edge moments that may seem inconsequential when they go your way but may be match-deciding when they don't. Like I said: we weren't just lucky last year, and we're not just unlucky this year, but I do think that we've simply had a few less things go our way this season. Maybe call it law of averages or something.
Anyways that said, I also don't think the loss of Thiago really explains the difference, either. No secret that I am a big Thiago fan, but I can also say at one point it was seeming like Kimmich+Goretzka was Flick's preferred pairing and that was working just fine until Pavard's injury, so it is what it is - I'm not yet convinced that having Thiago back, for example, would really 'cure' much on the defensive end.
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:04 am

Imagine already winning 3 trophies out of a possible 6 (and still be in good contention for another 2) this season and #12 claims we will end the season trophyless.
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Achilles » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:40 am

Lucas Hernandez might not be the VVD solution we seek for like Liverpool but heck he is a proper Centerback! His mind is setup for challenges, tackling balls and hardplaying opponents unlike Alaba-Boateng finesse and clever plays. Flick must put some toughness in there, I can't stand watching them marking with their eyes and ignoring contact or tackling.

Give Lucas Hernandez HALF the trust we put on Alaba or Sule and then we'll see. Not guaranteed starter, Black Beckenbauer praises but half of this unheard of trust and let him prove himself... This is unfair and hurts the team badly. Sometimes I wonder if Flick has such a close relationship with Boa-Alaba and he plays them so the can find lucrative contracts when they leave. Boateng for his extension and Alaba for 20m/y
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:15 am

MUTU wrote:Imagine already winning 3 trophies out of a possible 6 (and still be in good contention for another 2) this season and #12 claims we will end the season trophyless.
Those 3 you count I obviously count differently... There will be no title in 2021 - in it‘s original sense, since the CWC is a 2020 one - maybe bar the SuperCup which we might play if Leipzig win the double...
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:14 pm

#12 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Imagine already winning 3 trophies out of a possible 6 (and still be in good contention for another 2) this season and #12 claims we will end the season trophyless.
Those 3 you count I obviously count differently... There will be no title in 2021 - in it‘s original sense, since the CWC is a 2020 one - maybe bar the SuperCup which we might play if Leipzig win the double...


So a tournament that took place in 2021 you count as part of the season that ended in Summer 2020? So from Summer 2020 to February 2021 we participated simultaneously in two different seasons?

What's your range for seasons then?

Just like winning the CL is the prerequisite for participating in the Club World Cup, so is finishing in the top 4 of the Bundesliga a prerequisite for participating in the Champions League. With your logic you consider us winning the CL in the season 2018/19?
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:38 pm

MUTU wrote:
#12 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Imagine already winning 3 trophies out of a possible 6 (and still be in good contention for another 2) this season and #12 claims we will end the season trophyless.
Those 3 you count I obviously count differently... There will be no title in 2021 - in it‘s original sense, since the CWC is a 2020 one - maybe bar the SuperCup which we might play if Leipzig win the double...


So a tournament that took place in 2021 you count as part of the season that ended in Summer 2020? So from Summer 2020 to February 2021 we participated simultaneously in two different seasons?

What's your range for seasons then?

Just like winning the CL is the prerequisite for participating in the Club World Cup, so is finishing in the top 4 of the Bundesliga a prerequisite for participating in the Champions League. With your logic you consider us winning the CL in the season 2018/19?


No, I clarified my statement... Seeing as all the titles you mention require another TITLE to participate however, don’t act like it‘s the most craziest thing ever...

There‘ll be no truly 2021 title in the calendar year, since the CWC was supposed to be in December... And regardless of the year, it‘s not hard to win it, qualifying is...
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Re: 2020/21 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:55 pm

Tbf, I count the club world cup as belonging to the previous season, even if that sounds incoherent.

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