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2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:09 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:
#12 wrote:No it’s not... Because the other two can at least have a meaningful impact on offense... Müller is even important for our defense... Coutinho simply does nothing...


I can’t agree that Muller helps our defense as he is not a midfielder. In the Pep era the main reason he as effective was because he was scoring goals. Our midfield was still pretty thin but his overall output masked it. Now that is not the case and I would prefer a true midfielder in his place like Tolisso to give us a proper balance. When Muller plays we always look more like a 442 which leaves our midfield in shambles.


I can live with Tolisso... Not the Brazilian though...

But after yesterday I still prefer one player on offense on the field that can actually shoot ON target...
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:13 pm

#12 wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:
#12 wrote:No it’s not... Because the other two can at least have a meaningful impact on offense... Müller is even important for our defense... Coutinho simply does nothing...


I can’t agree that Muller helps our defense as he is not a midfielder. In the Pep era the main reason he as effective was because he was scoring goals. Our midfield was still pretty thin but his overall output masked it. Now that is not the case and I would prefer a true midfielder in his place like Tolisso to give us a proper balance. When Muller plays we always look more like a 442 which leaves our midfield in shambles.


I can live with Tolisso... Not the Brazilian though...

But after yesterday I still prefer one player on offense on the field that can actually shoot ON target...


I prefer control over offense. As long as the middle of the park is stable everything else usually comes into place. The only time I prefer offense is when it is a juggernaut style that even if we concede we can still hit back 10 fold. At the moment this team isn’t there yet and a player like Muller is a luxury we can’t afford l. At the very least Coutinho can play out wide effectively.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:25 pm

].[/quote]

I can live with Tolisso... Not the Brazilian though...

But after yesterday I still prefer one player on offense on the field that can actually shoot ON target...[/quote]
as long the one player doesnt take another 22 games to score a goal , phillipe can be option on lw the way coman and ivan are preforming recently .
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Are you talking about the best assister in Bundesliga history? Compared to a penalty and two tap ins he scored the goal of the year yesterday...
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:41 am

I'm still annoyed about the loss. We always have one of those kind of games every season and it is usually against f****** Leverkusen :evil:

If Kovac had still been the coach I would have seriously considered the possibility of Lewy and Gnabry sabotaging him :lol:

Posts, epic saves, 2v1, 3v1 .... as I said, it was one of those games. Leon Bailey will probably not score again until next year





But overall I really like what I'm seeing. It's like a breath of fresh air. Similar to 2017 and when Jupp replaced Carlo.

Everyone is on the same page now, we play as a team, with motivation, with a gameplan and plenty of tactical concepts

We were fragile in defense, but that's mainly because we were playing with Alaba and Javi Martinez as CB duo and Alphonso Davies ad LB

I really like what Flick is doing with Davies, but it will take him a long time until he becomes solid in defense. At the moment he is a liability especially with such a poor CB duo, but eventually he will get there. Kind of like Alaba back in the days

The only thing I'm not happy with is Thiago. I don't know why he is being left in the bench so often.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Coman » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 am

Can't wait Lucas Hernandez come back to play instead of Alaba as LCB with Alaba taking Davies spot as LB.

And with some luck, Hansi Flick will put Kimmich back at RB, even if he is amazing as #6 and play Pavard as RCB.

Kimmich Pavard Hernandez Alaba is probably our best back-4 when Süle is missing.

Martinez or Pavard actually, don't care. Even if against fast opponents it's better to play Pavard I believe.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm

Bayern's Pressing Under Flick
Bayern Munich have undergone a conspicuous change since Hansi Flick took charge. The team are quite a bit more stable and has seized back a bit of the dominance lost under Niko Kovač. This is in large part down to Bayern’s pressing, which is far less hesitant than under the previous manager, pressing on the first build-up line and consistently pushing up.Comparing matches under Kovač and Flick, it is immediately apparent that the level of aggression increased. The match against Leverkusen, on the other hand, showed how a talented counter-attacking side can break through against this Bayern side with long balls and quick passing moves from within their own half.

Joshua Kimmich recently spoke of this aggression after a solid win over Borussia Dortmund. He mentioned how Bayern had “marked comprehensively across the pitch” and thus allowed pushing up high into the midfield. The consistent coverage also forced the likes of Mats Hummels and Co. into hastily made decisions. The defenders were ran at and could not find open receiving options ahead of them. Dortmund’s midfielders particularly failed to ward off the attacks from Bayern players once they had received the ball.

The pressing scheme, however, is fairly simplistic. The opponent’s build up is attacked early from the customary 4-3-3 formation. Usually an attacking midfielder moves toward the second centre-back, the one Robert Lewandowski is not already occupying. From the flanks, the wingers add to the pressure on the opponent’s ball-carrier with short arching runs, thus making use of their cover shadows.

In midfield, the rest of the Bayern team orientates itself toward the opponent’s defensive midfielders, in theory leaving open an opposing central player, who, however, would be hard to reach with a lobbed pass given their distance to the ball, the short amount of time left for the ball-carrier and the partially blocked line of sight.This is the structure from which Bayern usually pressed in the Dortmund match.

The pressing itself is anything but revolutionary. The individual quality in pressing was always present, as evidenced by a few early season matches. On the wings in particular, players such as Kimmich or Serge Gnabry were able to press and force defensive actions, not least because they had the added help of the touchline, creating more compactness around their opponent, which would not have been possible in the centre because of structural deficiencies.This map shows zones of above-average and below-average defensive actions in a league-wide comparison. Bayern shine on the right side, although this is not necessarily due to a structured plan, but rather the individual talent on the right. (There are exceptions – especially when Lewandowski ran at defenders from the half-left space and led the opposition’s build-up to the right side.)

The Gegenpressing
Another component of the Bavarians’ defensive style is of far more interest. In a lot of matches, they do not have the opportunity to consistently run at an opponent’s open build-up play from an orderly pressing formation, as they were able to do against Dortmund.

Instead, they are in possession themselves and have to react to possible losses of the ball. They have rethought the gegenpressing as well. Previously, Bayern often attempted to win the ball back immediately, one to three seconds after losing it, and otherwise dissolved the gegenpressing and assumed a more compact defensive formation. Now the team remains in the gegenpressing moment and keeps up the pursuit in case the opponent plays a successful first pass and thus renders the first gegenpressing action a failed one.

The implementation causes the two players closest to the ball move into gegenpressing immediately when the ball is lost in the left or right attacking half-space after a pass toward Lewandowski. Together with the Polish striker, they create a triangle around the new ball-carrier.The comparison spells out the different focus and efficiency in the gegenpressing. In the first half against FC Augsburg, Bayern had a number of gegenpressing moments on the wings. In the second half against Fortuna Düsseldorf under Flick, on the other hand, the attacking half-spaces — where Lewandowski would typically receive the ball — turned out to be the spaces for gegenpressing.

This style of gegenpressing naturally only is an option because, under Flick, the two more attacking midfielders drift toward the wings less frequently, rather positioning themselves more centrally on the ball, allowing them quick access to the opposing ball-carrier in case a pass to Lewandowski or one of the wing attackers is not completed. The structure in possession still remains the prerequisite for a functioning gegenpressing and thus a more general dominance.

However, the forward-pushing movements of attacking midfielders would have to create a void in the central network of Bayern, should the attempt to win the ball back immediately, not come off — especially since Bayern have shown a tendency to keep trying the recover the ball immediately. At times, players who are a considerable distance from the action decide to move toward the ball and join the gegenpressing attempt while compromising other spaces.

Kimmich has proven, though, to have a knack for identifying the most likely next receiving option of the opponent and shortening his own travelling path toward the potential passing lane quite cleverly, so he can proactively prevent a counter-attacking move by winning the ball or applying pressure immediately after an opposing player has received the ball.Kimmich’s defensive actions over the course of the campaign again show he is quite active as a central midfielder especially in the zone before the half-way line. There, he either provides cover for the gegenpressing or functions as a coverage player in regular pressing.

Alternatively, Kimmich drops back into the back line and makes it stronger, in order to defend potential passes from the opponent out of the gegenpressing zone more effectively. Kimmich is, therefore, the safeguard for the still somewhat wild gegenpressing of his teammates in front of him.

Summary
Bayern have made drastic changes in their focus on working off the ball. It is no longer about minimising both damage and risk; rather, it’s about proactive defending. This style of pressing and gegenpressing can only function when translatory movements are followed quickly and when an automatic conception of the following movements has developed for the moment after losing possession.

Naturally, questions remain whether Bayern can follow this plan against every opponent. Leverkusen have, to some extent, already showed how quick long balls to attacking players skilled in laying the ball off can be a means to an end, if the other attacking players push into the spaces created by the central defenders staying close to the striker accordingly.

Looking at the big picture of the coaching change at the German record champions, though, the true realisation is how quickly a major strategic sea change can function as long as the procedures remain simple and rest on something that is already well-known.




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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:15 pm

The idel changes for the sec roundImage
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:18 pm

ramsej84 wrote:The idel changes for the sec roundImage
We have no wingers left.... time to change for the above....

With Zirkzee / Muller replacing Serge and Coutinho in behind them
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 pm

"18 outfield players is enough!"

"What #12, you want us to add another two wingers to the squad? You’re insane!"

"We've transitioned well"

"The upheaval was a great success!"

"We HAD to sell Hummels"
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:03 pm

From the disc in the spanish football thread

4.3.2.1
Manu

Josh Pavard Alaba Phonzie

Coco #6 Leon
Muller. Phil

Lewa
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:19 am

Apart from Thiago and Coutinho, none of our midfielders are suited to play in that type of formation
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Fénix » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:23 am

They all are suited to play. Every modern footballer is suited to play everything according to some smartasses over the last 11 years, especially at Bayern where in the last 6-7 years midfielders play CBs and FBs, full-backs play midfielders and so on and so on.

It's just the question are they good enough to play for Bayern in those roles, but since they have major issues to play even in 4-2-3-1 defensive part of the game, in my opinion 3 out of 5 midfielders should be sold and replaced with 2 classic no. 6 and one new no. 8.

The biggest problem is that even when we have a lot of midfielders, we still fail to even consider an option of playing winger-less formation and system like Zidane in 2 CL finals which he won with Madrid.

If you never give a try, you never know what you have or what could (not) have happened and that's all the saddest part of modern football coaches.

Tiki-taka really destroyed football between 2009-2013, but it was eventually totally destroyed by Bayern and Brazil in 2013 and 2014 and after that guys like Klopp and Zidane when they have teams and players regularly destroy the remaining pieces of that.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Machiavellico » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:32 pm

Fénix wrote:The biggest problem is that even when we have a lot of midfielders, we still fail to even consider an option of playing winger-less formation and system like Zidane in 2 CL finals which he won with Madrid.


That's because we don't have the players for a winger-less formation. Or not the right ones, at least.

Why it worked for Zidane:
Two great attacking fullbacks. For the sake of the argument, let's say both Kimmich(ignoring the CDM drama) and Alaba(again, ignoring Davies) would be able to have the same input Marcelo and Carvajal did for Real in those two seasons. Although Marcelo is a monster Alaba will never develop into and Kimmich certainly won't because of his CDM fetish. Theoretically, two season ago we'd have been good here, yeah.
An exceptional destroyer which anchors back and stops almost every offensive play and covers for the marauding fullbacks. Hello, Casemiro. Here begin our troubles. Javi was this. He truly was. But in 2013. Since then, we never had a true destroyer(I'm not gonna even try to mention Xabi Alonso) except for his glimpses of the past, like the match against Liverpool. A Liverpool which, by the way, successfully implemented this with Fabinho/Henderson + TAA and Robertson.

Two FAST defenders, steady on their feet and excellent at tackling. Biggest problem of the decade for our defense. Cause in the past 4 years we had a defender that was fast but sucked ass when tackling and a defender that was excellent at tackling but slow as a snail. And, rather funnily, we still kept trying to play a high line. Despite not having a proper DM and proper CBs. But I digress

Three midfielders that ALWAYS completed each other. Casemiro the DM, Kroos the distributor and Modric the jack of all trades, who was actually excellent at tackling, passing and dribbling. While we had in the recent years some midfielders with some good individual qualities, they rarely complemented each other. Yes, Vidal was a great tackler and he complemented Thiago's artistic side, but he was never deployed as a DM. Because that wasn't his nature. He was always up, down, up, down. An efficient player, but not a DM. And Thiago? Thiago has been converted to a DM. A job he does well, but he's not a destroyer. Not by a long shot. And we've seen that in the many mistakes he's made over the years. I still think it's a travesty that we never got a proper DM to play in Thiago's spot and let him be more offensive, I'm sure he would have the same input as Modric. He was, after all, a lethal weapon for Spain's U21 side in the final third. But that's Guardiola's fault for setting him up as the sole man in the 4-1-4-1. And, unfortunately, it sticked. I'm not even gonna comment on failed experiments such as Renato Sanches, James or Goretzka(our jack of all trades that's only good at heading).

Ronaldo. Did both what a winger and a striker should do. That's unique, unfortunately, and there's no one we could've bought to do the same.

Let's face it. Despite always giving the impression of "Omg, Bayern bought another midfielder? what are they gonna do with him?", since Schweinsteiger and Javi in 2012/13 we didn't have a proper midfield. It was always over the place. In the past 3 years even more so. Guardiola kinda held it intact with his explicit instructions and even that was not enough. Why do you think Heynckes' first measure was to drop the whole team some good yards back when he was an interim? cause he recognized that our midfield is not what it takes to hold a defense with two offensive fullbacks.
And THAT's the key for success these days.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:40 pm

Davies is already a monster.... so we have already the lwb secured
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