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2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:26 pm

2019/2020 Tactics and Formations masterclass-
Hope Lewandowski can score more than we concede.


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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:33 pm

The Misery of Bayern Munich
Niko Kovac revealed the whole dilemma in a press conference a few days ago. Asked whether Bayern Munich could play a similar pressing to Liverpool FC, he verbally blocked the line of inquiry. One would have to have the right kind of players for that, he said. He would need more time, too—perhaps even the full four years Jürgen Klopp has already spent in Liverpool. For the head coach of ultra-ambitious Bayern, this was a meagre statement and a symbol for the current situation.

We need not kid ourselves: Bayern will probably once again be German champions this season. That is not due to their brilliance, rather the mediocrity of their immediate competitors, who are mostly dealing with their own problems instead of hunting down the Bavarians. Still, few in Munich are content. Because they know that, come springtime, they will once again be in for a rude awakening should Bayern advance to the quarter- or semi-finals of the Champions League.

At the moment, the misery is not singularly being laid at the feet of Kovac. Still, the head coach, who has been wounded and is often left alone by the club’s upper management, defends himself for quite some time now. His somewhat disrespectful statements toward the team seem to be a part of that. Asked about Liverpool’s football, he said: “You cannot try to go 200 kilometres per hour on the Autobahn when you can only manage 100.” Maybe he wanted to underline that his players, on average, lack speed, which, however, seems somewhat far-fetched given his quick attackers. Perhaps he wanted to convey subtly that Bayern cannot keep up with the Mo Salahs and Sadio Manés of the football world.

From his point of view, this broadside would even make sense, because lately Kovac could only truly rely on Robert Lewandowski and Serge Gnabry, while the mediocre performances of his other players often had him furrow his brow. However, Kovac cannot deflect all the responsibility in this situation. Of course, the squad is still in a state of upheaval. And he does not have all the players he wished for—Leroy Sané, for instance—at his disposal. The sporting misery is also down to Kovac, though.

No control over the pitch
This starts all the way back with the uninspired possession play and ends up front with rudimentary pressing. Few things in-between the two extremes work well, either. The counter-pressing, for instance, is not working well, as Kovac tried to convey to the public, but rather a weakness of this team. A weakness, that has robbed Bayern of their once so striking defensive stability.

Of course, they are still one of the best defensive sides of the league going by important statistical indicators such as the PPDA. But they no longer look down on the rest of the field from a high throne. Last season already, opponents had a realistic opportunity to come back after going behind against Bayern. Outside of Borussia Dortmund, this used to be an unthinkable idea for Bundesliga teams a few years ago.

The point of origin of all the malady lies within the weak formational structure of Bayern who, especially under Kovac, fail to properly man the centre of the pitch. Just a few weeks ago, the two central midfielders remained in their deep position and only insufficiently joined in the attacking play. Kovac then switched from a 4-2-3-1 to a 4-3-3 and managed to create an inverted effect. Now the two more offensive-minded midfielders are staying too far up the pitch and, quite regularly, too far toward the wings as well. They do not support the build-up play sufficiently.The statistical values of recent games underline this aspect, as the number of passed played between the central players in comparison to those on the wings clearly shows how often the build-up play is being kept out of the centre and how Bayern try to find a way on the flanks. Of course, they have an advantage in individual quality over many opponents there thanks to Gnabry, Kingsley Coman and others. But when the penalty box and the zone 14 are well covered, Bayern’s wingers do not have the option to forge ahead from the wing into the centre. This results in a lot of crosses and chipped passes from the half-space.It is this generally weak occupation of the pitch which results in a possessional play that the opponent can relatively easily guide toward the flanks. It also results in bad counter-pressing because of a lack of compactness in close proximity to the ball, which is why Bayern can no longer develop their intrinsic dominance in possession of the ball.

Where is Pep Guardiola?
In this context, the question comes up again and again when and why Bayern have gone through this negative development. And why the erstwhile developments under Pep Guardiola have been reversed. During his time at the club from 2013 to 2016, Bayern may not have won an international trophy, but they were so compact in proximity to the ball that their (ostensibly) ultra-attacking playing style did not come back to hurt them. Their counter-pressing failed to work only against absolute top teams at the most. Other than that, the team exuded an overwhelming dominance which left many opponents no room for air especially in transitional situations.

However, it seemed that, after the Guardiola era, Bayern moved away from this footballing philosophy because it was not Bayern-like enough and because they failed to win the Champions League under the Catalan. Bayern did not, though, perform a true paradigm shift and were now standing in a grey area of the vague. The absolute will of a philosophical upheaval toward a more high-octane football—without having the suitable components, such as the right coach, for it—has turned Bayern to a second-rate team, at least in the international context.

The upheaval in the squad, which had been discussed and least partly advertised for years, did not force the club into throwing over board the playing philosophy of its successful period. However, Bayern are still stuck in a notional contrariness just as other parts of German football: On one hand, they want to be trailblazers in Europe, for example to overcome the financial differences—and the pressing era under Klopp, Jupp Heynckes and others was a perfect time for that. On the other hand, there seems to still be a longing for a genuinely German or Bavarian brand of football, even though this line of thought is still being coined by the era around the year 1990.

Their football is supposed to be fast yet at the same time tactically sophisticated and, ideally, successful even when the club does not go for the best players on the transfer market. And it is supposed to be represented by a coach who distinguishes himself through strong leadership, eloquence and a certain approachability. Essentially, Kovac can really only lose here—despite all his own mistakes in the last few weeks and months.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:26 am

The best thing about ten Hag and Ajax is, that their line-up last year is so ridiculously similar to the players we already have, we wouldn't have to change that much, despite this squad being in quite the deep shit. Apart from 1-2 quality signings (Sané, Havertz/Coutinho) + a bit more depth.

Tadic -> Lewandowski
Ziyech -> Coutinho
Neres -> Sané (hopefully), if not, Coman
van de Beek -> Tolisso
de Jong -> Thiago
Schöne -> Kimmich

I don't see us signing Coutinho though if he doesn't do a 180. Number 1 alternative and probably most people's favorite Havertz hasn't been performing this season and if Leverkusen really demand a Joao Felix fee, he's not going to come either. Altough he has already shown he can perform on the wing and on the 10, like Ziyech. So maybe we'll just get Ziyech, 1 year late?

So we could see something like this:

--------- Lewandowski --------
Sané ------------------- Havertz
------------ Tolisso --------------
------ Thiago --- Kimmich ----
Alaba -------------------- Pavard
--------- Lucas -- Süle ---------
-------------- Neuer ------------

Most people don't like Kimmich at DM and Pavard at RB, and I don't like it either. But that could change under the right coach, in a proper system and the right role. Obviously under Kovac he was supposed to be the DLP instead of Thiago. I don't think that's the right way, so Thiago should take the de Jong role and Kimmich a more free role. Tolisso is the best the further up the pitch he can play anyway.
Another option obviously would be to put Goretzka/Tolisso at DM, and Havertz/the playmaking winger (Ziyech...) at #10. But I was mainly going by ten Hag's preferred system.

All in all I think with the right coach, the above line-up is pretty balanced and promising. Bonus point is that it's pretty flexible ingame. We could switch to a 3 atb fluently.
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:40 am

Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:52 am

MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.


Oh really?

"Van" in the dutch means "of". So basically "Daniel of Buyten". "Mark of Bommel". "Ten" in dutch means "to". So "Erik to Hag".
You have the same in German with "von" or "zu". It was originally used to signal your residence or your place of origin. And unless it's at the beginning of a sentence or part of a proper noun like the "Van Gogh Museum", it's usually not written in capital letters.

Fine if it's written like that in English though. Thanks for the clarification.
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Fénix » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:54 am

MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.

I agree with you, but you are about to lose it because Germans are constantly writing in their media and articles with small letter these surnames/family names; van Bommel, ten Hag, ten Cate, van de Beek, van Hooijdonk, de Vrij, etc. I don't know why do they do that if you dont put the player's name at the beginning, but even in case of German surnames like M-A ter Stegen they always write ter Stegen and not Ter Stegen or where you have "von" like von Beren, von Mayer, etc.

Just open SportBild, Spox, Bild, TZ, SZ, Merkur, Kicker and you'll see this in titles and articles. On the other side, Spaniards and Latin Americans write exactly as you are pointing it out when I read their sites.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:57 am

bastos80 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.


Oh really?

"Van" in the dutch means "of". So basically "Daniel of Buyten". "Mark of Bommel". "Ten" in dutch means "to". So "Erik to Hag".
You have the same in German with "von" or "zu". And unless it's at the beginning of a sentence or part of a proper noun like the "Van Gogh Museum", it's usually not written in capital letters.

Fine if it's written like that in English though. Thanks for the clarification.



It's not an English name, it's Dutch and that's the Dutch convention for writing names. Germans don't do it that way. You would write "Manfred von Richthofen" and "von Richthofen", because that is the German convention.

The Dutch one is different.

If LvG was German, you'd write von Gaal, but because he's Dutch you need to write Van Gaal.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 am

Fénix wrote:
MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.

I agree with you, but you are about to lose it because Germans are constantly writing in their media and articles with small letter these surnames/family names; van Bommel, ten Hag, ten Cate, van de Beek, van Hooijdonk, de Vrij, etc. I don't know why do they do that if you dont put the player's name at the beginning, but even in case of German surnames like M-A ter Stegen they always write ter Stegen and not Ter Stegen or where you have "von" like von Beren, von Mayer, etc.

Just open SportBild, Spox, Bild, TZ, SZ, Merkur, Kicker and you'll see this in titles and articles. On the other side, Spaniards and Latin Americans write exactly as you are pointing it out when I read their sites.


They do it exactly because of the reason I stated in my post.
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:00 pm

Fénix wrote:
MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.

I agree with you, but you are about to lose it because Germans are constantly writing in their media and articles with small letter these surnames/family names; van Bommel, ten Hag, ten Cate, van de Beek, van Hooijdonk, de Vrij, etc. I don't know why do they do that if you dont put the player's name at the beginning, but even in case of German surnames like M-A ter Stegen they always write ter Stegen and not Ter Stegen or where you have "von" like von Beren, von Mayer, etc.

Just open SportBild, Spox, Bild, TZ, SZ, Merkur, Kicker and you'll see this in titles and articles. On the other side, Spaniards and Latin Americans write exactly as you are pointing it out when I read their sites.

Yes, as I explained there are different conventions, so one should use the convention for that person's surname origin IMO. So I would say, I wonder whether Ten Hag thinks Neuer is better than ter Stegen and whether he would be interested in bringing Van de Beek with him.

If you visit Dutch websites you should not see "ten Hag" written on its own without "Erik" preceding it.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:02 pm

MUTU wrote:
bastos80 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Time for a Spelling Nazi lecture guys.

It's either "Erik ten Hag" or "Ten Hag", never "ten Hag" on its own. It is the same thing as with Daniel van Buyten/Van Buyten, and others like Van Bommel or Van Basten.


Oh really?

"Van" in the dutch means "of". So basically "Daniel of Buyten". "Mark of Bommel". "Ten" in dutch means "to". So "Erik to Hag".
You have the same in German with "von" or "zu". And unless it's at the beginning of a sentence or part of a proper noun like the "Van Gogh Museum", it's usually not written in capital letters.

Fine if it's written like that in English though. Thanks for the clarification.



It's not an English name, it's Dutch and that's the Dutch convention for writing names. Germans don't do it that way. You would write "Manfred von Richthofen" and "von Richthofen", because that is the German convention.

The Dutch one is different.

If LvG was German, you'd write von Gaal, but because he's Dutch you need to write Van Gaal.


Got it. Can we stop abusing this thread for grammar nazi purposes now?
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:14 pm

bastos80 wrote:The best thing about ten Hag and Ajax is, that their line-up last year is so ridiculously similar to the players we already have, we wouldn't have to change that much, despite this squad being in quite the deep shit. Apart from 1-2 quality signings (Sané, Havertz/Coutinho) + a bit more depth.

Tadic -> Lewandowski
Ziyech -> Coutinho
Neres -> Sané (hopefully), if not, Coman
van de Beek -> Tolisso
de Jong -> Thiago
Schöne -> Kimmich

I don't see us signing Coutinho though if he doesn't do a 180. Number 1 alternative and probably most people's favorite Havertz hasn't been performing this season and if Leverkusen really demand a Joao Felix fee, he's not going to come either. Altough he has already shown he can perform on the wing and on the 10, like Ziyech. So maybe we'll just get Ziyech, 1 year late?

So we could see something like this:

--------- Lewandowski --------
Sané ------------------- Havertz
------------ Tolisso --------------
------ Thiago --- Kimmich ----
Alaba -------------------- Pavard
--------- Lucas -- Süle ---------
-------------- Neuer ------------

Most people don't like Kimmich at DM and Pavard at RB, and I don't like it either. But that could change under the right coach, in a proper system and the right role. Obviously under Kovac he was supposed to be the DLP instead of Thiago. I don't think that's the right way, so Thiago should take the de Jong role and Kimmich a more free role. Tolisso is the best the further up the pitch he can play anyway.
Another option obviously would be to put Goretzka/Tolisso at DM, and Havertz/the playmaking winger (Ziyech...) at #10. But I was mainly going by ten Hag's preferred system.

All in all I think with the right coach, the above line-up is pretty balanced and promising. Bonus point is that it's pretty flexible ingame. We could switch to a 3 atb fluently.


To much deadweight, compromise and injury proneness in there...

I DEMAND at least one new DM/DLM (hybrid) next summer - on top of a CB, Sané and Havertz... Maybe even another winger, given how Perisic and Coman suck ass and Sané and Gnanry are/might be injury prone...
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Fénix » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:48 pm

In any case all what #12 menrioned is necessary.

#10/attacking midfielder(Havertz), #6/real, classic defensive midfielder, one or two CBs depending on number of fullbacks and Kimmich's unsolved MF situation, 2 wingers(Sané amd a new one).

All that and a top coach.
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:56 pm

bastos80 wrote:[



It's not an English name, it's Dutch and that's the Dutch convention for writing names. Germans don't do it that way. You would write "Manfred von Richthofen" and "von Richthofen", because that is the German convention.

The Dutch one is different.

If LvG was German, you'd write von Gaal, but because he's Dutch you need to write Van Gaal.[/quote]

Got it. Can we stop abusing this thread for grammar nazi purposes now?[/quote]

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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:09 pm

Fénix wrote:In any case all what #12 menrioned is necessary.

#10/attacking midfielder(Havertz), #6/real, classic defensive midfielder, one or two CBs depending on number of fullbacks and Kimmich's unsolved MF situation, 2 wingers(Sané amd a new one).

All that and a top coach.


Zacharia is an interesting option for the 6. Probably the only good suggestion Kovac has made in his time here.
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
--------------- Neuer ----------------
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Re: 2019/20 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Fénix » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:06 pm

Niko also mentioned Kanté and Rodri, but it meant nothing to us this and last year. We weren't in the game except the "famous" Marc Roca who is no longer anywhere near any German media, Twitter, etc. Media über-hype results in the end like this. :lol: :lol: :lol:
As for Zacharia, I have no opinion at all, but many people have also highlighted him as a very, very solution for defensive midfielder position.

And we should seriously think about signing a backup fullback, either left or right fullback. Injuries are really fcked up thing. Lucas and Pavard aren't enough as well as Süle as the only remaining CB near broken Boateng and emergency solution Javi from midfield.

We will finally click with one coach for 3-4 years in one piece, though, this must be followed by new round of investments and signing 5-6 new players.

Sané, Havertz, Zacharia, Dani Olmo, new defender(s) and Werner and we are done - full to the top.
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