You are not logged in or registered. Please login or register to use the full functionality of BayernForum.com

2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Discussions about anything in general about Bayern, such as tactics, finances, kits, merchandise etc.
 

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:27 am

Badger wrote:Was that meant to read "three-man defence"? I assume so. And, yes, I agree that it's not new, and the Italians have made quite a success out of it at times.

I initially wrote this post with this assumption in mind. Quaazi has since confirmed that this is not the case, but I promised you this post and I think it is worth posting anyway. After all, some may point out that a three-man defence has been used before if we start using it.

It is true that the three-man defence has been used and has been successful in the past, but I still believe Guardiola implementing it here would be very innovative. First of all, as far as I know the proposed 3-4-3 formation has never been used successfully. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. The three-man defence formations that have been successful in the past have all been a variant which includes a striker duo, kind of what Juve have done recently (not sure whether they still use it). This is a big difference. A 3-4-3 is just about as similar to these formations as a 4-2-3-1 is to a 4-4-2.

The 3-4-3 has been used by some smaller teams in the recent past, most famously by Napoli. But still Guardiola's tactics would be something different. I used to watch Napoli very often up till a couple of years ago (I used to like them, but then they injured Schweinsteiger :P). At Napoli it is usually the opponents who have the ball. The formation may have officially been a 3-4-3 but on the field it was more often a 5-2-3 or 5-4-1 or even 4-3-3. Napoli used it, to relative success, as a counterattacking formation. The ease with which it morphs into having 5 defenders, while still leaving you with 5 players from the midfield up to set up a quick counter made it a great formation for this style of play.

Bayern, however, are the most possession-oriented team in Europe at the moment. Using a counterattacking formation with a team that seeks to dominate the game sounds oxymoronic. That is the second Guardiola innovation if he chooses these tactics. He's taking the skeleton of a counterattacking, reactive formation and using it to perfectly execute dominating, active, possession-based tactics. On the field, our team will probably look like a 3-4-3 more often than Napoli did. I also think that it will be very rare for us to see Bayern in a 5-2-3 or 5-4-1. Why so? The third difference comes into play here. Based on what we have seen from Bayern over the last few years, I think it is likely that for Bayern it won't be the fullbacks (presumably Alaba and Lahm) who track back to help the defence, like they did in Napoli. More probably (in my opinion) it will be one of the CMs who drops back to form a backline of four. In the meantime, Alaba and/or Lahm, who are brilliant midfielders, move closer to the centre to replace the CM who drops back, creating a temporary 4-3-3 or some variation of it. This is the kind of total football we've been using since Van Gaal was coach. It should allow us to create counters much quicker than Napoli used to do, because Lahm and Alaba won't have to cover as much distance as Napoli's fullbacks did. We'd have four defenders who are midfielders or are great with the ball, they'd send the ball to Alaba/Lahm or the other CM and these will immediately move back to the wing, with a defender running up to support them, recreating the 3-4-3. Obviously there will also be cases when Lahm and Alaba track back, depending on the situation, but I think this will be our main plan for defence.

But why a 3-4-3, one might ask? The answer, I think, lies in history: why did teams use a 3-man defence in the first place, and why were they successful? The reason is that everyone played with two strikers at the time. With a 3-man defence one would outnumber the strikers even if they are not aided by their midfield. The 5-man midfield would also outnumber the common 4-4-2 midfield. It was the perfect counter to the tactics at the time. But today teams play with one or even no strikers, so why on Earth would Guardiola want a 3-man defence!? Today most teams attack not through the centre but through the wings.

The modern equivalent to the 3-man defence to counter the 4-4-2 decades ago is parking the bus. We are, and as long as Guardiola is here we will always be, the dominant, active team. Our opponents are the ones reacting, and when the players are decent and the opposition is well organized, it has worked magnificently (United, Real, Dortmund, Chelsea among others). Our dominant style has left us exposed at the back and counters have killed us. In other words, it is the answer to our style.

What is very interesting to me is that Guardiola believes the key to solving this is to adopt a reactive formation ourselves, but keep our dominant style. By changing our formation, the whole counterattacking plan of our opponents crumbles because our structure is so vastly different than what they are used to. When you think about it, the 3-4-3 is a brilliant way to nullify today's park the bus/counterattacking tactics. The ease with which it transitions and the number of players in non-offensive positions (7) should mean that opposing forwards being unmarked or matching/outnumbering us (as in Real's goal in Madrid, for example) should happen less often. It also fits our style of pressing high up the field. We'd have a line of 4 in midfield (as opposed to a 4-2-3-1) and there are also 3 other central players ahead of them (the forwards). That means that when we are pressing in our opponent's side we again have 7 players to do so. The quicker and the farther away we win the ball, the better. Once we win the ball we will likely have more players in our opponent's side than we would with a 4-2-3-1. That allows us to set up a counter more easily. Perhaps the most important point is, however, the one Guardiola keeps harping on about. Counterattacking football is good and all that, but a team can only counter (and score) if it has the ball. The 3-4-3 is one of the most compact formations out there. The players are very close together, more so than in a 4-2-3-1, and that gives our players lots of passing options. It should reduce the chance of misplaced passes and interceptions, because our players will have safer options. And so a formation that has been termed a counterattacking one is seen to fit in the possession and pressing monster that is Bayern perfectly.

Apart from a more robust defence, the 3-4-3 is also interesting attacking wise. The "wingers" in this formation play more centrally than in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-4-1. Seeing as our wingers are goal threats, this should be great for them. It also allows the front three to rotate and interchange much more easily, further confusing opponents and making marking so much harder for them. Meanwhile Lahm and Alaba are more advanced so they can attempt crosses more often than they currently do.

A few days ago I said that Guardiola wants to do something which has never been done before so that he is remembered. This is probably true, and this kind of 3-4-3 would be exactly that. But the change would not be just about Guardiola leaving his mark. It's what is necessary to go back to the top and remain there. It counters the solutions which teams have found to the current dominant teams, but more importantly, it is so different from other formations that teams will take a long time to figure out an effective, reliable solution. Barcelona were like that when Guardiola first took over. The style may be dead now (may) but it took some 4 years for teams to start stopping it consistently. Guardiola is trying to find the new "unbeatable" (relatively) style. This 3-4-3 would require a lot of discipline and our players need to be very smart. Like I said on another thread yesterday, I believe we have one of the smartest squads out there and this is what Guardiola knows how to take advantage of. We would create a style that will be very hard for other teams to replicate, and that is perhaps the best thing about it. The less the teams that use it, the less likely effective counters will be developed. Barcelona's style became easier to beat when other teams, most notably Bayern, started adopting it, and so it became more common and teams started having more experience playing against it. If anyone is going to pull of this thing and create the new dominant style to move football on from the tiki-taka vs bus tactical situation it's been in for at least the last 6 years, then it is this Bayern with this coach.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:32 pm

A point I forgot to add: some might ask what happens when teams DON'T counterattack against us. That remains to be seen. We might stick with the 3-4-3 anyway, or we may revert back to another formation. At this point, however, I'd say two things:
1) If teams do that it shouldn't be a problem. When teams try to attack us it usually ends in a big win for Bayern.
2) After the away game vs Real Madrid I've started to think that it is inevitable that teams will play like this against us. The truth is that they simply have no choice. They don't get the ball often enough to play otherwise, and they must counter quickly rather than try to keep possession because if they try the latter they will never score. Bayern's strong midfield will win the ball eventually if they keep the ball, and if they let the defence organize itself it is very hard to score against. Our only defensive weakness is that we are often caught on one foot.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:15 pm

Great post!!!

The main reason I am in favor of the 3-4-3 is like Badger mentioned before in one of his post, it creates a "safety in numbers" effect for the Bayern CBs. Unlike the 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 there is one extra CB/sweeper sitting deep in addition to the deep lying midfield sitting in front of the defense. Like seen in the DFB Pokal final this makes it very hard for teams to counterattack vs Bayern even if Bayern are playing with a high line. Cant wait for the season to start! :D
Welcome to the Allianz Arena....

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
User avatar
Firefox1234
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 18514
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 1:42 am
Location: United States of America
National Flag:
Kenya
Has thanked: 5873 times
Been thanked: 4473 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Aequitas1987 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:07 pm

Just wanted to say I kinda mentioned something similar to a 3-4-3 this way before the dortmund cup final :P

I want to go all crazy tactically now, lets look back at the united game and Pep's really revolutionary strategy of playing Alaba and Lahm as half-backs? Also lets back at some more experimentation he did with a 3 man defense. I know just thinking these things might make most of us shit ourselves in fear but knowing Pep its not a long shot. He as a coach is always in search of that next level of football tactics and perfectionism maybe he can come up with something completely unorthodox that we have never seen before. I wanted your opinion on this crazy formation Daniel.

A 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 formation.

Lewandowski
MullerThiagoGotze
AlabaMartinezLahm
BenatiaSchweinsteigerBadstuber
Neuer


Obviously like most formations this is not a fixed shape, it changes based on attack, press and pure defense. Also I have put some players in positions that might surprise some people. For e.g. I put Schweinsteiger is defense instead of Martinez because I truly believe that Martinez is much better suited in midfield whereas Schweinsteiger is a more calming presence in defense and can organize our defense with Lahm being pushed further up. Also with his age I see Schweinsteiger taking more of a Pirlo like role of deep lying playmaker, just imagine those defense to goal scoring opportunities crosses that Dante used to do but this time being executed by Schweinsteiger. I also think its quite easy for Martinez and Schweinsteiger to switch if needed if one pushes further forward. In Jupp's season Schweinsteiger was almost like our 3rd CB (like Kroos is nowadays) coming back to collect the ball from our CB then creating the attack.

Alaba and Lahm both have proven they can play centrally (Lahm this season and Alaba for Austria) they are both technically gifted. Along with Martinez you can argue that they cover the most ground (i.e. our most hard working players) so they can potentially play the half-back roles like the united game to perfection, i.e. cover the space left behind them for winged counter-attacks.

In a pure defense we would almost become a 5 - 1 - 3 - 1 formation. During pressing we will have our best pressers / ball winners in my opinion in midfield. It would also allow players like Alaba to go for long shots much more often. We will also be able to reap the rewards of Lahms midfield bossing and possession (hes been our best player under Pep in midfield) and not lose out on him commanding the defense because Schweinsteiger can take care of that.


And am really excited to see this in effect next season
SoStronk.com
Aequitas1987
I'm a post king!
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 2559
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:50 am
National Flag:
India
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 224 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:09 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:The main reason I am in favor of the 3-4-3 is like Badger mentioned before in one of his post, it creates a "safety in numbers" effect for the Bayern CBs. Unlike the 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 there is one extra CB/sweeper sitting deep in addition to the deep lying midfield sitting in front of the defense. Like seen in the DFB Pokal final this makes it very hard for teams to counterattack vs Bayern even if Bayern are playing with a high line. Cant wait for the season to start!

It depends on how you use it though. In the end it is still one less player in defence, or in midfield (if the midfielders are at the back helping out). On the whole, tactically speaking and disregarding who the players are the 4-2-3-1 is still my favourite formation. The 3-4-3, however, is a very balanced and potentially deadly formation. It is very difficult to master (as Salzburg showed us) but if done properly I think the reward will be well worth the effort. I have long considered the 3-4-3 because I do believe we have the right players to master it, although I never thought we would realistically consider it. For this reason I am in favour of us experimenting further.

However, one thing remains very important to me. As much as I would like to see a 3-4-3 succeed, experimenting season must end as soon as pre-season ends. If we are destroyed in the Super Cup and if we struggle in the early Bundesliga games it must be ditched immediately (and perhaps taken up again in January). We cannot compromise a season just to try to make it work.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:21 pm

Aequitas1987 wrote:Just wanted to say I kinda mentioned something similar to a 3-4-3 this way before the dortmund cup final

Pfft... that is still recent. A quick search of the word "formation" in my posts shows that I first suggested a three-man defence (3-5-2) in September 2008, one month after joining. I proposed a 3-3-3-1 in December 2010, and the 3-4-3 itself in September 2011. Beat that. :coffee:

This was my original 3-4-3:
------------------------Neuer-------------------------
----------Gustavo----Tymo-----Boateng-----------
Muller--------Schweini-----Kroos-------------Lahm
----Robben-----------Gomez-------------Ribery----


And this was MUTU's reaction:
You're kidding, right? We'd be slaughtered with counter attacks. Our midfield (Schweini-Kroos) isn't fast, and then there's 3 central defenders. That would be tactical suicide.


:lol: I must say MUTU, obviously you can't compare Tymo with Martinez, but Gustavo is faster than Dante. It's also funny how I had already put Muller as a wingback here, seeing as I proposed it to Bazi a few days ago. I had forgotten about this.

Anyway, just kidding Aequitas. :mrgreen: Yeah you did kinda did anticipate Pep there. However, although the formations are similar, as a base skeleton the 3-3-3-1 is kinda... meh. It looks like it does nothing great, neither attacking nor defending. Obviously in actual play the formation will look quite different though.

I think LVG had pulled a 3-3-3-1 once. Anyone remember? :-k
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:28 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Badger wrote:Was that meant to read "three-man defence"? I assume so. And, yes, I agree that it's not new, and the Italians have made quite a success out of it at times.

I initially wrote this post with this assumption in mind. Quaazi has since confirmed that this is not the case, but I promised you this post and I think it is worth posting anyway. After all, some may point out that a three-man defence has been used before if we start using it.

It is true that the three-man defence has been used and has been successful in the past, but I still believe Guardiola implementing it here would be very innovative. First of all, as far as I know the proposed 3-4-3 formation has never been used successfully. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. The three-man defence formations that have been successful in the past have all been a variant which includes a striker duo, kind of what Juve have done recently (not sure whether they still use it). This is a big difference. A 3-4-3 is just about as similar to these formations as a 4-2-3-1 is to a 4-4-2.

The 3-4-3 has been used by some smaller teams in the recent past, most famously by Napoli. But still Guardiola's tactics would be something different. I used to watch Napoli very often up till a couple of years ago (I used to like them, but then they injured Schweinsteiger :P). At Napoli it is usually the opponents who have the ball. The formation may have officially been a 3-4-3 but on the field it was more often a 5-2-3 or 5-4-1 or even 4-3-3. Napoli used it, to relative success, as a counterattacking formation. The ease with which it morphs into having 5 defenders, while still leaving you with 5 players from the midfield up to set up a quick counter made it a great formation for this style of play.

Bayern, however, are the most possession-oriented team in Europe at the moment. Using a counterattacking formation with a team that seeks to dominate the game sounds oxymoronic. That is the second Guardiola innovation if he chooses these tactics. He's taking the skeleton of a counterattacking, reactive formation and using it to perfectly execute dominating, active, possession-based tactics. On the field, our team will probably look like a 3-4-3 more often than Napoli did. I also think that it will be very rare for us to see Bayern in a 5-2-3 or 5-4-1. Why so? The third difference comes into play here. Based on what we have seen from Bayern over the last few years, I think it is likely that for Bayern it won't be the fullbacks (presumably Alaba and Lahm) who track back to help the defence, like they did in Napoli. More probably (in my opinion) it will be one of the CMs who drops back to form a backline of four. In the meantime, Alaba and/or Lahm, who are brilliant midfielders, move closer to the centre to replace the CM who drops back, creating a temporary 4-3-3 or some variation of it. This is the kind of total football we've been using since Van Gaal was coach. It should allow us to create counters much quicker than Napoli used to do, because Lahm and Alaba won't have to cover as much distance as Napoli's fullbacks did. We'd have four defenders who are midfielders or are great with the ball, they'd send the ball to Alaba/Lahm or the other CM and these will immediately move back to the wing, with a defender running up to support them, recreating the 3-4-3. Obviously there will also be cases when Lahm and Alaba track back, depending on the situation, but I think this will be our main plan for defence.

But why a 3-4-3, one might ask? The answer, I think, lies in history: why did teams use a 3-man defence in the first place, and why were they successful? The reason is that everyone played with two strikers at the time. With a 3-man defence one would outnumber the strikers even if they are not aided by their midfield. The 5-man midfield would also outnumber the common 4-4-2 midfield. It was the perfect counter to the tactics at the time. But today teams play with one or even no strikers, so why on Earth would Guardiola want a 3-man defence!? Today most teams attack not through the centre but through the wings.

The modern equivalent to the 3-man defence to counter the 4-4-2 decades ago is parking the bus. We are, and as long as Guardiola is here we will always be, the dominant, active team. Our opponents are the ones reacting, and when the players are decent and the opposition is well organized, it has worked magnificently (United, Real, Dortmund, Chelsea among others). Our dominant style has left us exposed at the back and counters have killed us. In other words, it is the answer to our style.

What is very interesting to me is that Guardiola believes the key to solving this is to adopt a reactive formation ourselves, but keep our dominant style. By changing our formation, the whole counterattacking plan of our opponents crumbles because our structure is so vastly different than what they are used to. When you think about it, the 3-4-3 is a brilliant way to nullify today's park the bus/counterattacking tactics. The ease with which it transitions and the number of players in non-offensive positions (7) should mean that opposing forwards being unmarked or matching/outnumbering us (as in Real's goal in Madrid, for example) should happen less often. It also fits our style of pressing high up the field. We'd have a line of 4 in midfield (as opposed to a 4-2-3-1) and there are also 3 other central players ahead of them (the forwards). That means that when we are pressing in our opponent's side we again have 7 players to do so. The quicker and the farther away we win the ball, the better. Once we win the ball we will likely have more players in our opponent's side than we would with a 4-2-3-1. That allows us to set up a counter more easily. Perhaps the most important point is, however, the one Guardiola keeps harping on about. Counterattacking football is good and all that, but a team can only counter (and score) if it has the ball. The 3-4-3 is one of the most compact formations out there. The players are very close together, more so than in a 4-2-3-1, and that gives our players lots of passing options. It should reduce the chance of misplaced passes and interceptions, because our players will have safer options. And so a formation that has been termed a counterattacking one is seen to fit in the possession and pressing monster that is Bayern perfectly.

Apart from a more robust defence, the 3-4-3 is also interesting attacking wise. The "wingers" in this formation play more centrally than in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-4-1. Seeing as our wingers are goal threats, this should be great for them. It also allows the front three to rotate and interchange much more easily, further confusing opponents and making marking so much harder for them. Meanwhile Lahm and Alaba are more advanced so they can attempt crosses more often than they currently do.

A few days ago I said that Guardiola wants to do something which has never been done before so that he is remembered. This is probably true, and this kind of 3-4-3 would be exactly that. But the change would not be just about Guardiola leaving his mark. It's what is necessary to go back to the top and remain there. It counters the solutions which teams have found to the current dominant teams, but more importantly, it is so different from other formations that teams will take a long time to figure out an effective, reliable solution. Barcelona were like that when Guardiola first took over. The style may be dead now (may) but it took some 4 years for teams to start stopping it consistently. Guardiola is trying to find the new "unbeatable" (relatively) style. This 3-4-3 would require a lot of discipline and our players need to be very smart. Like I said on another thread yesterday, I believe we have one of the smartest squads out there and this is what Guardiola knows how to take advantage of. We would create a style that will be very hard for other teams to replicate, and that is perhaps the best thing about it. The less the teams that use it, the less likely effective counters will be developed. Barcelona's style became easier to beat when other teams, most notably Bayern, started adopting it, and so it became more common and teams started having more experience playing against it. If anyone is going to pull of this thing and create the new dominant style to move football on from the tiki-taka vs bus tactical situation it's been in for at least the last 6 years, then it is this Bayern with this coach.


Brilliant post! I would only add that it is not just us getting more and more park-the-bus teams, it is a matter of the spirit of times. Look at Atletico, Madrid or Chelsea, top clubs are moving en mass to counter-attacking philosophies, probably in reaction to so many years of possession-obsessed football.
User avatar
PunkCapitalist
I live on BayernForum.com
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 7759
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 3466 times
Been thanked: 3058 times
Gender: Male

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:36 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Brilliant post! I would only add that it is not just us getting more and more park-the-bus teams, it is a matter of the spirit of times. Look at Atletico, Madrid or Chelsea, top clubs are moving en mass to counter-attacking philosophies, probably in reaction to so many years of possession-obsessed football.

I believe that the more counterattacking teams there are, the better. It would make us stick out more. The worst thing our opponents can do to themselves is let us play this style alone. They'll forget how to play against it. If you look at history teams with a unique style have always dominated football, though they sometimes did not win.

All we need to do is figure out a way to nullify the counterattacking threat. When it comes to actually breaking down the defence, I am not too worried. We did it when we had Thiago and we did it when we were on form. Guardiola will figure out new ways to attack over the summer too.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:48 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Aequitas1987 wrote:Just wanted to say I kinda mentioned something similar to a 3-4-3 this way before the dortmund cup final

Pfft... that is still recent. A quick search of the word "formation" in my posts shows that I first suggested a three-man defence (3-5-2) in September 2008, one month after joining. I proposed a 3-3-3-1 in December 2010, and the 3-4-3 itself in September 2011. Beat that. :coffee:

This was my original 3-4-3:
------------------------Neuer-------------------------
----------Gustavo----Tymo-----Boateng-----------
Muller--------Schweini-----Kroos-------------Lahm
----Robben-----------Gomez-------------Ribery----


And this was MUTU's reaction:
You're kidding, right? We'd be slaughtered with counter attacks. Our midfield (Schweini-Kroos) isn't fast, and then there's 3 central defenders. That would be tactical suicide.


:lol: I must say MUTU, obviously you can't compare Tymo with Martinez, but Gustavo is faster than Dante. It's also funny how I had already put Muller as a wingback here, seeing as I proposed it to Bazi a few days ago. I had forgotten about this.

Anyway, just kidding Aequitas. :mrgreen: Yeah you did kinda did anticipate Pep there. However, although the formations are similar, as a base skeleton the 3-3-3-1 is kinda... meh. It looks like it does nothing great, neither attacking nor defending. Obviously in actual play the formation will look quite different though.

I think LVG had pulled a 3-3-3-1 once. Anyone remember? :-k

Different times, different times.

Kroos was nowhere close to the quality he is now, Boateng wasn't as good, and I still can't fathom Mueller as RDM. Still wrong to me, sorry! :P
30GB free cloud storage. Click here for the referral.
User avatar
MUTU
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
Site Admin & EURO 2016, 2017/18 and World Cup 2018 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 45613
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: L-Imqabba, Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 8371 times
Been thanked: 13253 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:28 pm

MUTU wrote:Different times, different times.

Kroos was nowhere close to the quality he is now, Boateng wasn't as good, and I still can't fathom Mueller as RDM. Still wrong to me, sorry! :P

Fair points.

Muller in that position is highly unlikely and risky, I admit, but it could work. A player who can cover a lot of distance and who is balanced and willing to both attack and track back can do well in that position I think. Especially because I'm expecting our CMs to do more defensive work than the wingbacks, as explained in my other post.

At the time I probably made the suggestion based on the fact that Lahm was our only good fullback though. Or was Rafinha already here? :?
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:17 pm

Perhaps the main question that needs to be asked after the fourth thrashing in 14 months for this style is whether a formation change is actually enough.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby AvatarX » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:37 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Aequitas1987 wrote:Just wanted to say I kinda mentioned something similar to a 3-4-3 this way before the dortmund cup final

Pfft... that is still recent. A quick search of the word "formation" in my posts shows that I first suggested a three-man defence (3-5-2) in September 2008, one month after joining. I proposed a 3-3-3-1 in December 2010, and the 3-4-3 itself in September 2011. Beat that. :coffee:

This was my original 3-4-3:
------------------------Neuer-------------------------
----------Gustavo----Tymo-----Boateng-----------
Muller--------Schweini-----Kroos-------------Lahm
----Robben-----------Gomez-------------Ribery----


And this was MUTU's reaction:
You're kidding, right? We'd be slaughtered with counter attacks. Our midfield (Schweini-Kroos) isn't fast, and then there's 3 central defenders. That would be tactical suicide.


:lol: I must say MUTU, obviously you can't compare Tymo with Martinez, but Gustavo is faster than Dante. It's also funny how I had already put Muller as a wingback here, seeing as I proposed it to Bazi a few days ago. I had forgotten about this.

Anyway, just kidding Aequitas. :mrgreen: Yeah you did kinda did anticipate Pep there. However, although the formations are similar, as a base skeleton the 3-3-3-1 is kinda... meh. It looks like it does nothing great, neither attacking nor defending. Obviously in actual play the formation will look quite different though.

I think LVG had pulled a 3-3-3-1 once. Anyone remember? :-k


LVG used a 3-3-3-1 against Inter in 2011.
"You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred."
User avatar
AvatarX
Assistant Admin & World Cup 2014 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 8099
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 pm
Location: Metaverse
National Flag:
Anonymous
Has thanked: 843 times
Been thanked: 944 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:38 pm

AvatarX wrote:LVG used a 3-3-3-1 against Inter in 2011.

He went for a 3-defence formation again tonight. :)

As I told Element and walter on facebook, we lead, others follow. ;)
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby AvatarX » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:41 pm

I had a post about this formation, LVG was one of the main supporters of this and 3-3-1-3:

https://www.bayernforum.com/champions-league-f5/inter-milan-vs-bayern-munich-t6053-600.html?hilit=formation#p103273
"You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred."
User avatar
AvatarX
Assistant Admin & World Cup 2014 Prediction Game Winner
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 8099
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 pm
Location: Metaverse
National Flag:
Anonymous
Has thanked: 843 times
Been thanked: 944 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:46 pm

AvatarX wrote:I had a post about this formation, LVG was one of the main supporters of this and 3-3-1-3:

https://www.bayernforum.com/champions-league-f5/inter-milan-vs-bayern-munich-t6053-600.html?hilit=formation#p103273

Pep has come close to the kamikaze formation. The unexpected twist is that it is 1-7-3, the one being Neuer.
User avatar
FCBayernMunchen
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 39616
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:54 pm
Location: Malta
National Flag:
Malta
Has thanked: 13247 times
Been thanked: 10438 times
Gender: Male
BayernForum.com fan club: Active member
BayernForum.com donator: Yes

PreviousNext

Return to General Bayern Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ben Gardner and 2 guests