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2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby quaazi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:28 pm

It takes time, I guess. Last season he implemented the basic underlying system, this season he is building prototypes, next season... =P~
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:54 pm

If he brings home the CL cup, he'd get some credits(even if many would say that it was easy with Bayern's collective)... Otherwise, public opinion will crucify him once again. Nothing less is acceptable from Pep.

A few are already appreciating his tactical work... But many others don't judge by 'work' but by titles won.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MatZam » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:05 pm

Badger wrote:I’m busy at work in recent weeks and not on the forum as often as I used to be. I like this thread, and it is one that I drop into quite often. I’m wondering now about the emphasis on formations. Are we behind the times talking so much about rigid formations, when Guardiola is demonstrating that fluidity is his vision for the way forward? For example, do we really know where Bernat plays on the pitch, other than somewhere on the left? And where are Lahm and Goetze playing in midfield? Lahm has been seen in the opponent’s penalty box more often this season that in the previous decade. And how often do we see Lewandowski on the wing? And how many games have we seen where we can’t be sure whether Bayern have three or four defenders. And so forth. Yes, there has always been some roaming, but it now seems to be deliberately moving to new levels. It leaves the opposition not sure what formation and tactics they are playing against – a very modern strategy. I think the time has come for tactics fans to start studying (and appreciating) Guardiola’s fluidity.


I've sometimes been thinking about the same thing (a natural result of lectures not ending before 20:00)...

Guardiola seems to have never had much regard for rigid formations, and is developing that idea further and further with our team. His main mantra is (and has always been) attacking, his teams have never been great shakes defensively, and have relied on retaining possession rather than being able to stand repeated waves of attacks themselves.

I feel that one of the main tenements of Guardiola's philosophy, undoubtedly influenced heavily by Cruyff and his own Total Football, is that a player not actively participating in the build-up is a player wasted. Participation need not be touching the ball every 3 seconds, a player on the other side of the pitch from where the ball is might be dragging a player or two out of position, and thus fulfilling an important role in the build-up. This philosophy also leads to a high backline, and perhaps the most visible example, a goalkeeper playing forty yards in front of his own goal.

The latter of these is, I feel, the best representation of this philosophy that no player must be 'wasted'. The 1970s to 1990s were dominated by sweepers, like our own Beckenbauer, who sat behind the defence and swept up any attacks that bypassed the initial defence. In Guardiola's mind a sweeper is a 'wasted' player, if a goalkeeper can combine his own role with that of a sweeper then that allows a team to play with a further midfielder or attacker, thus increasing their offensive prowess. I also think he feels the same way about the doppelsechs, so popular in Germany for its defensive stability. Yet going from the 4-2-3-1 to a 4-1-4-1 allows for extra attacking impetus (these formations should not be taken literally, but just to show that more players are contributing to the attack)

Some people are of the view that Lewandowski, as a striker, has not been scoring enough as opposed to his potential. But it would be interesting to see how much time Lewandowski actually spends in the box. I would say it is no more than players like Goetze or Mueller, or at the very least not significantly more. He participates in the build-up as much as any of our midfielders. Look at the second goal against Roma for a wonderful example, a low pass from the left by Lewandowski with the finish by Goetze. In most other teams in the world it would be the other way round, with the difference that the opposing defence would expect it to be so, and thus have a far higher chance of cutting out the move.

It would also seem as though Guardiola views all football players (I might be taking on too broad a definition here) as midfielders. Some midfielders are just better at finishing and others at defending, but a defender who cannot play a pass and a striker who just waits in the box will never curry much favour with our coach.

You address the situation of where our players are playing exactly in midfield. But do they need to have a defined role in the midfield? A 4-1-4-1 formation does not mean that each winger need always stick to his own touchline. Ribery and Robben have often combined to work an opening on the same wing, even in the pre-Guardiola Era (first goal in the CL final). The most popular strategy appears to be getting as many players as possible on one flank and try to overload it. In cases where that does not work, we often employ a quick transition the right flank, where although we have less players the opposition are unprepared.

For example. If Ribery, Goetze, Lewandowski, Alaba and Bernat are trying to work their way through on left flank and it isn't working, they can pass quickly to the middle, where Lahm and Alonso are, before they in turn lay it off quickly to the right wing where Mueller and Robben are, who in turn try to take it forward. In the meantime the previous attackers on the left break into and around the opponent box to take advantage of any crosses or second ball opportunities that come there way.

Obviously our in-game tactics are more complex than this, but these are just a few observations I thought I would write down...
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:22 pm

Guardiola wasn't like this with Barca though, or even with Bayern last season. Some form of structure, however weird, was always discernible. Now it's gotten to the point where it's impossible to write down a formation. I gave up on that weeks ago and just look at who the 11 players are without bothering about Lahm being in midfield or Alaba in CB or whatever.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:06 pm

I think most people here have indeed appreciated this seasons tactical fluidity, if we write down formations its just to give some kind of sense of who plays deeper and who more advanced. Obviousky, this season's tactics are much note complex, but there is no better way to speak about them without writing a thesis hehehe. Anyway... Yes Lewy has been playing practically as a winger, while Müller or Shaq play as 9s. He is a superb player and is doing fine, but I still think it is wasting his talents a bit. Overall I'm liking very much what Pep is doing this season, just hope he can cramp up all our idols on the pitch when they come back :D
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Badger » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:16 pm

MatZam wrote:I've sometimes been thinking about the same thing (a natural result of lectures not ending before 20:00)...

Guardiola seems to have never had much regard for rigid formations, and is developing that idea further and further with our team. His main mantra is (and has always been) attacking, his teams have never been great shakes defensively, and have relied on retaining possession rather than being able to stand repeated waves of attacks themselves.

-Snip-

...


Very interesting post. Thanks.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby runaway » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:35 am

Our formation is definitely very fluid on and off the ball and our attack has become more flexible than last season. Last season, things have become very predictable, keep possession, pass around the box, score a goal inside the box. Now we've seen Bernat and Lahm with clear chances on goal every game and we've seen the team counterattack and run. All this won't be possible if not for this summer's additions. Bernat gave Alaba and Goetze freedom to gravitate more centrally. No words are needed for Xabi Alonso.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:22 pm

runaway wrote:Our formation is definitely very fluid on and off the ball and our attack has become more flexible than last season. Last season, things have become very predictable, keep possession, pass around the box, score a goal inside the box. Now we've seen Bernat and Lahm with clear chances on goal every game and we've seen the team counterattack and run. All this won't be possible if not for this summer's additions. Bernat gave Alaba and Goetze freedom to gravitate more centrally. No words are needed for Xabi Alonso.

Curiously enough, in Herr Pep they claim one and again and again how much Pep hates de U movement of the ball at the back (which we all hate so much and saw many times last season). I think finally the players are actually doing what Pep has wanted them to do all along.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ottackon » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:25 pm

Inside the SuperClubs: Pep Guardiola's tactics alter Bayern Munich's identity

http://www.si.com/soccer/planet-futbol/ ... -guardiola
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:32 pm

He's crazy... definitely. Sammer is right.

You know of whose tactics reminds me... of another crazy man named Zeman, but he never made them work properly and often had catastrophic results.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby runaway » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:37 pm

ottackon wrote:Inside the SuperClubs: Pep Guardiola's tactics alter Bayern Munich's identity

http://www.si.com/soccer/planet-futbol/ ... -guardiola

When Guardiola took over, he recognized one key difference between Bayern and the Barcelona team he left: the Bavarians’ strength lies in wingers Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben, as opposed to the suffocating central triumvirate of Andrés Iniesta, Xavi and Lionel Messi.

As such, the fullbacks take their movement cues from the wingers and make runs to balance the team’s shape, rarely occupying the same vertical space. When the winger cuts inside, the fullback overlaps; when the winger stays wide, the fullback squeezes centrally. That dynamic relationship frequently intersects the “half-spaces,” so-called in one tactical theory gaining prevalence.

Coincidentally, I just read an in-depth explanation of these half-spaces in Spielverlagerung.com.
A shift from one half-space to the other offers several different perspectives and is the ideal intersection of a great number of strategic factors.

Bayern took advantage of this with their false full-backs this past season; they let the actual width givers indent more in the first third, in order to open these spaces and overload the half-spaces and were good at counter-attacking in the strategically important central areas while being less protected on the wings.

Overloads of players from the strategically least important zone, the wings – especially in the protection of their own attacks – are thus possible; which brings us to the false full-backs of Bayern Munich again. The half-spaces can be quickly overloaded by players indenting a few meters and players swapping positions is no problem due to the high number of players in the three zones (half-space, middle, half-space) and the short distances between them. These position switches, the brief abandoning of the wing, and the general features of the half-space also provide other positive effects, which aren’t possible in the middle or on the wings.

Thus, the half-spaces also have a very collective nature; the possibility of rapid and targeted diagonal combinations, the harmony and feedback effects of the fields of view, and the way many players can combine ensures variety and constructiveness in a team’s play. This is interesting and important not only in the defensive and offensive game, but also in transition.

Here's a gyfcat link for the animation of Bayern in the SI article. Images per frame for less hypnotic staring at dots effect. Names in the dots, added by me just to keep track which dot is which. :D

Alaba's and Lahm's injury will shackle this new found dynamism. It's easy to replace an FB with another FB but how can we replace an FB/CB/CDM/LMorRM/CAM? :lol: This makes it harder to think who will replace Lahm. At least Alaba has Bernat. Rode, a good CDM/CM is not yet used to playing in RB. Rafinha, capable as a wingback is limited as a CDM. What would best it seems is split Lahm's offensive and defensive roles and distribute it to other players. Boateng or Benatia are both capable RB/CB/CDM. This would give Rode or Hojbjerg more leeway in the middle without the added responsibility of defending the right flank.

Oh well, it's Pep's to figure out. :coffee:
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby quaazi » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:17 am

3 goals conceded in the league so far. Something is going right, I think.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:29 pm

quaazi wrote:3 goals conceded in the league so far. Something is going right, I think.


Defensively we are not as shaky as we were last season and even with Alaba and Lahm out things are still looking good. The only thing is the occasional "goof" by the defenders and midfielders so far that have caused us to concede goals.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MaCk0y » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:15 pm

The Eurosport commentator during the Berlin vs Bayern match mentioned that Bayern had over 100 corners so far this season and converted 3 of those. I cringe every time I see Ribery or Robben take a corner kick and the the opposition player near the first post clears the the ball with their feet! Alonso is the best corner kick taker I think. I want to see Neuer take them. :lol: At least we are not conceding from corners. Have improved from that aspect.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:28 pm

MaCk0y wrote:The Eurosport commentator during the Berlin vs Bayern match mentioned that Bayern had over 100 corners so far this season and converted 3 of those. I cringe every time I see Ribery or Robben take a corner kick and the the opposition player near the first post clears the the ball with their feet! Alonso is the best corner kick taker I think. I want to see Neuer take them. :lol: At least we are not conceding from corners. Have improved from that aspect.

Well, only two of our outfield players exceed 1.90m: Boateng (1.92m) and Benatia (1.91m)
Badstuber and Martinez (both 1.90m) are injured.

We don't have enough tall players, and the tall ones are defensive players who are trained to head the ball to safety not into the net.

We got rid of Toni (1.93m), Petersen (1.88m), Gomez (1.89m) and Mandzukic (1.87). Lewandowski is relatively shorter at 1.84m. Toni had a whopping 9cm on Lewandowski. And let's not even mention van Buyten (1.97m)
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