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2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:51 am

Lahm had great games as a RB but since the German NT doesnt have many good fullbacks to begin win Lahm's services were best suited their. Lahm played great as an RB and I don't know why people mind it so much. To be honest i was skeptical at first but after watch him in the world cup Lahm has shown he is more than capable of being a CM.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:53 am

endrity wrote:
JANCKER wrote:Even Mou gave his opinion to spice it up about Lahm's position. Pep needs to be supported, this skepticism goes in favour to opponents. J. Zanetti was a fullback like Lahm, but Mou played him in midfield, Mou apparently has some kind of amnesia.
For now the board seems to be supporting him in his decisions, that's what matters.


There are many key differences between the Lahm and Zanetti situation. Zanetti had been switching between fullback and defensive midfielder often throughout his career. Zanetti, unlike Lahm, had more than enough physicality to play as a defensive midfielder. And most importantly, in Chivu and Maicon Inter had two very good fullbacks and not enough great midfielders.

We instead have Rafina! And it needs to be said over and over again because people rationalise this too much: Rafinha is UTTERLY INCOMPETENT to play at the highest level and I am not exagerating. He's a worse version of Marcelo, the player Germany picked on during the 7-1 drubbing of Brazil - that is a player of a lot of energy and also good technique, but that is almost always out of position. Watch him carefully and you'll see he struggles to even stay in line with the rest of the defense.


Why don't we just fire Pep then? You're saying he is an amateur, I can't believe that our club hired an amateur. I've known him as the most successful coach of his generation, but seems I was wrong.
Rafinha is incompetent? If so why is he still at Bayern? He's getting a regular salary for being incompetent, who brought him at Bayern in first place? I swear, I didn't know we're being run by a bunch of incompetent people until now.
I believe they can see things from a different point and better than me and you, and I guess they can't make everyone happy. You're crucifying people before the start of the season, and I consider myself a pessimist.
Pep needs success with Bayern more than you and me, and I don't think he won't give all what's in his power to achieve everything with Bayern, he's got a reputation to uphold.
With all this skepticism around him, if he succeeds, his victory will be bigger, if he fails, he'll leave through the window.
I'm not a Pep fan, you can fire him tomorrow if you want, I'll always be a Bayern fan.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Dgro » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:29 am

Firefox1234 wrote:Lahm had great games as a RB but since the German NT doesnt have many good fullbacks to begin win Lahm's services were best suited their. Lahm played great as an RB and I don't know why people mind it so much. To be honest i was skeptical at first but after watch him in the world cup Lahm has shown he is more than capable of being a CM.


He's good as a CM, no doubt about it. It's not a question of whether or not he is capable. But to me Lahm is about an 8/10 CM while he's a 10/10 RB when in form. I wouldn't even have to consider who we have on the roster to say that I think Lahm should play as a fullback, but when I observe that our best replacements are at CM and not RB** the decision just becomes easier. I'm not bent out of shape over Pep's decision though

**no offense to Rafinha who I think is pretty good, but obviously I'd rather see him sit down that Javi, Thiago, Basti, or whoever doesn't fit into midfield when Lahm plays there.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby SchwanMunich » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:34 am

Lahm is a very good central midfielder, but he's absolutely world class at RB and the World Cup proved that. I'm giving pep then benefit of the doubt. I think he made some mistakes tactically last year and that we were very, very susceptible to the counterattack defensively. In addition, in attacking we were slow and needed to be more direct.

My guess is that Pep and the board realized this and are making adjustments. I still believe that are best lineup is lahm, Dante, boateng, alaba....schweine and Martinez, and then a 3 of either robben, Ribery, mueller or goetze, and Lewandowski up top. 4-2-3-1 would give us a legitimate shot at another champions league, and we would never have lost that badly to RM last year. Regardless of what formation we play with our talent we will win bundesliga and dfb and go deep in champions league.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:19 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
The one good thing about Lahm in the midfield is that he can last longer in there than as a RB. But, assuming a 3-4-3, Lahm in the midfield and the unbenchable status of Thiago under Guardiola, Schweini would surely take the Bench. On the other hand, if we go with a 4-2-3-1 (with Lahm CM, Thiago CAM) then it's either Javi or Schweini benched. So no winning situation in either case. The 4-1-4-1 would be even worse, I'm sure under that formation, we would play Götze+Thiago as CAMs... All of this without even considering Alaba as a CM; if you add him, then I don't have a clue on how the spaniard intends to fit all of those players in midfield. Just Alaba + Lahm + Thiago in midfield at the same time would be dificult and mean Schweini benched, Højbjerg not getting chances, Javi not playing midfield, etc, etc, etc...

Also, Guardiola abused of rotation last season. Too much and no one gets to find their rhythm. I would hope he would rotate less this season, or at least have rotation system that means less moving between positions for the players.

But, I'm puzzled at how you say Lahm is lost as a RB. He has been consistently been more of an attacking thread in the RB, both for Bayern and Germany.


I totally agree with you that Lahm is a great right back. I never said he is lost as a right back but I feel having him as a 9/10 midfielder could be better for the team than a 10/10 fullback. You don't get his flanking movement but as a distributor if the ball I feel he is much better than Javi, only for example. They bring different talents to midfield and I am a fan of getting Javi and Schweini in midfield. If you forced me to choose between Martinez and Lahm in midfield, I would say there is a case for Lahm there even if our backup right backs aren't as world class. But if he ends up played as RB it would make space for Javi and Schweini together so I wouldn't complain.

I don't understand why a few people act as if players are stuck in certain roles and they can't move. Alaba was a midfielder but Heynckes turned him into a great left back. Schweini was a winger and made into a CM. Thierry Henry was considered a wide forward before he was made one of the greatest strikers in the world. Somebody found Messi on the wing and made him the best player in the world as a false nine. I get that Lahm is the best fullback so I see the loss of quality, but if our midfield has the injury pattern we had last year I'd rather see Lahm fill in than someone unproven.

If the board decide Guardiola isn't doing the job, he'll be let go and great because the coach is here to make this group of players the best team in the world. Obviously Pep doesn't have the same set of players he had in Barcelona and has to work with what he has here. At the same time, the board put Pep here to implement Pep's ideas so until Bayern part ways with him, he's going to do his job and bring his ideas. I don't know why we pay him if the board can run things better.

Bayern does not equal German NT. German NT had no other right fullbacks. And don't say Grosskreutz. If you guys use german nt as your argument, I will use Goetze's goal to prove you can win anything even without a center forward and I would only be doing that to be ridiculous because I am happy we have Lewa now ;)
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:45 am

pyrasur wrote:I totally agree with you that Lahm is a great right back. I never said he is lost as a right back bit I feel having him as the 10/10 right back is not as great for the team as he would be as a 9/10 midfielder. You don't get his flanking movement but as a distributor if the ball I feel he is much better than Javi, only for example. They bring different talents to midfield and I am a fan of getting Javi and Schweini in midfield. If you forced me to choose between Martinez and Lahm in midfield, I would say there is a case for Lahm there even if our backup right backs aren't as world class. But if he ends up played as RB it would make space for Javi and Schweini together so I wouldn't complain.

I don't understand why a few people act as if players are stuck in certain roles and they can't move. Alaba was a midfielder but Heynckes turned him into a great left back. Schweini was a winger and made into a CM. Thierry Henry was considered a wide forward before he was made one of the greatest strikers in the world. Somebody found Messi on the wing and made him the best player in the world as a false nine. I get that Lahm is the best fullback so I see the loss of quality, but if our midfield has the injury pattern we had last year I'd rather see Lahm fill in than someone unproven.

If the board decide Guardiola isn't doing the job, he'll be let go and great because the coach is here to make this group of players the best team in the world. Obviously Pep doesn't have the same set of players he had in Barcelona and has to work with what he has here. At the same time, the board put Pep here to implement Pep's ideas so until Bayern part ways with him, he's going to do his job and bring his ideas. I don't know why we pay him if the board can run things better.


I agree to a great extend with you. Lahm is probably the best player we have for the midfield in the system Guardiola wants to implement. And he sure is great there too. But the thing is, Guardiola's system doesn't play to our squad's strengths. The best thing we had before he took over was our double wings: Alaba+Ribery & Lahm+Müller/Robben. Instead of exploiting that, he choose to basically abandon wing-play and go for a more centrally-centric style. In a system which employed wings better, Lahm's contribution would be far greater as a RB.

Now, I'm not saying the decision to get Guardiola was wrong a-priori either. While a think his genius is overstated (he built ONE team, that's all his experience), the prospect of bringing him in to create a legacy was sound logic. But he's proving to be a fundamentalist, and that's just wrong (wish he wasn't). He might be successful in the end, but right now he's wasting a golden generation which is unlikely to repeat itself soon.

People should also have some perspective about last season. Sure it seems like a huge success if seen from a historical perspective, but take a look at the squad too. No team besides Dortmund could make any sort of claim to having the same quality as Bayern, and Dortmund suffered a horrible injury crisis (worst than ours). So I don't count this season as that great of an achievement for Guardiola.

Just as a final thought, I wish he wasn't such a rigid fundamentalist and used better the resources at his disposal. 3-4-3 seems very promising as the next big thing formation-wise, so hope he goes that way, but also that he becomes more willing to reduce possession and play more directly. Lahm in midfield is about ball-retention and ball retention is not the goal of football. Tiki-taka's time is gone; everything -including football strategy- evolves and a single strategic system cannot rule Europe for 10 years. So Guardiola has to make something new out of our team, or he will fail.
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby runaway » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:14 am

Have guys missed the Scweinstiger thread that his doctor said he'll need 6 weeks to recover? Lahm would be more reliable there than Thiago.

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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bcbayern » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:20 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:I agree to a great extend with you. Lahm is probably the best player we have for the midfield in the system Guardiola wants to implement. And he sure is great there too. But the thing is, Guardiola's system doesn't play to our squad's strengths. The best thing we had before he took over was our double wings: Alaba+Ribery & Lahm+Müller/Robben. Instead of exploiting that, he choose to basically abandon wing-play and go for a more centrally-centric style. In a system which employed wings better, Lahm's contribution would be far greater as a RB.

I couldn't agree more. Götze has looked good on the wing, and Robben remains the most dangerous winger in the world IMO. Alaba and Lahm both provide excellent distribution from their respective LB/RB positions. I feel like Pep implementing a more central/possession style is something he's more comfortable with; however, I really do believe by doing this he's making the players fit into his system, rather than choosing a system to fit the squad's strengths.

Either way, he's more qualified than anyone on this forum. I'm excited for this season.... :)
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby draconaut » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:47 am

This may sound crazy but if Lahm is still going to play as CDM ,can Robben play as a RB?haha (I want Thomas Mueller to play at right wing!)
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:28 am

Shaqiri played LB before so maybe he can play RB ? :)
Sané ---- Lewandowski ---- Gnabry
Davies - Thiago - Kimmich - Dest
Hernández -- Alaba -- Upamecano
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:56 pm

The coach should look at the conditions, develop his ideas from those conditions and then the players must implement the gameplan. But we shall see when the season actually starts what Guardiola does and how successful he is. I agree he must achieve success this season. Especially with Schweinsteiger, Robben, Lahm, and even Ribery at their best or trying not to lose form. If this were a longer term development at Bayern I think it would be ridiculous to part ways with such a great manager after two years, but Bayern over several years of long-term planning has finally has managed to assemble the best team in the world. It would be a waste if this team did not win the biggest titles now.

This season we are going to have to be more realistic about our European opponents too. While winning everything is going to be a must for this team, our European opponents have gotten much stronger. The 4-0 and 7-0 scorelines of the 12-13 season made it seem as if Heynckes's achievement was easy. Arsenal tied us 3-3, things could have gone differently if Alaba's shot wasn't deflected in against Juve, and we were only convincing when Heynckes was forced to play Robben after Kroos was injured. Real, Barca, and Chelsea are going to be tough this year and many other teams must not to be underestimated again.

I think the bright spot in all this is that Guardiola and the team must feel compelled to erase last season and prove they are the best again. Robben used disappointment of 11-12, ignored fans who dismissed him, and came back with a vengeance to seize the Treble for Bayern. I hope the whole team can do the same now.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:25 pm

I think our season under Heynckes is praised a little too much. Often we've gone up early in the games and could control it.
How many times have their been moaners, because we've played posession football ?
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:00 pm

Seems like nobody cares anymore to win BuLi, and other trophies, except CL. I expect to win CL once more after the 2013, if not this season, next season, cause I'm realistic not to expect to win it every year, they're humans not machines after all. I'd expect Bayern to win it every year only if they changed CL system to a league mode, but that's a different story, cause historically we struggle in knock-out phases, with Germany NT is the same case, I believe that might be one reason why they hired Pep, cause they thought he could improve on that, let's see if he can do any good in that direction.
What formation and who was playing in that game we were thrashed in CL? Where did Lahm play? Martinez-Didn't-Play-Excuse, I've heard of that one too. Pep deserves some blame, but the players were somehow too passive, lacked aggression, I think in the end RM wanted and needed that final more than us, what could we've done about that? Cause I think he is getting all this criticism for one bad performance, and he even wasn't in the field, in the end players are the ones that make the difference.
I expect even a more difficult task this year, I don't expect any team willing to play against us 'face-to-face', I'd make exception only German teams, cause Germans play 'go for all or nothing', that's our mentality and in the same time weakness, and the competition is stronger than ever.
Our 'set piece weakness' is an inherited thing I guess, and that's what ended our last year's dreams too. I was expecting from everyone who came at Bayern to improve on that, but from the same thing seems like all German teams suffer.
We've got some buses to destroy this year if we want to lift the CL trophy once more, we'll be needing our best hammers.
JANCKER

 

Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:31 pm

We only really had one bad game at the end of last season, which was the home game against Madrid, but even still the whole end of season looked as if the team got burned out and couldn't implement the tactics anymore. I don't really think Pep over-rotated. If we had continued working Ribery and other starters instead of giving the youngsters a chance we probably still would have lost and he would have gotten the blame for over-using the players. But that goes with the territory of the coach: Pep makes the gamble and must take responsibility for what happens. He did so it's over for me. The players have to take responsibility for their performance and the board made the choices on players and coach so responsibility is theirs too. We gotta take whatever lessons we take from last year but at the same time we can't dwell too much in the past. People have to be accountable for their mistakes but if the error is not too grievous they need a chance to redeem themselves and sometimes these people who have something to prove are better than the ones who never make a mistake.

It's true though last home game for sure we had Lahm right back, we played with our true striker Mandzukic and it didn't help. I think people take Bundesliga for granted too. Dortmund always get away with assuming this underdog status, but that's fine for me I prefer that Bayern do so well that it is expected. It's not Bayern's fault the club is run so well. Anyway, I am confident Bayern have done what they needed to do this summer transfer wise, and now Guardiola is going to have to prove why the board trusted him.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: 2014/15 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:57 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:Lahm had great games as a RB but since the German NT doesnt have many good fullbacks to begin win Lahm's services were best suited their. Lahm played great as an RB and I don't know why people mind it so much. To be honest i was skeptical at first but after watch him in the world cup Lahm has shown he is more than capable of being a CM.

He is, but we (heck, the whole world does actually) lack a RB of his calibre.

Lahm at CM was initially a good idea because we simply had no one to play there. The same was true at the world cup when Schweini's and Khedira's fitness was dubious at the beginning. But now we no longer have to play him in midfield. He should be moved back to RB unless circumstances force us to use him as a CM.

This is the one thing I don't like about Pep. I hope we don't see Lahm in midfield regularly.
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