FC Bayern Forum

[pyrasur]

^Agree. Could be very flexible depending on the nature of the opposition or vary in different moments throughout the game. We seemed to do something similar in 12-13. In our best games no one really conformed always to their position. They acted outside an understandable pattern sometimes and other teams couldn't cope, whether it was Schweini dropping deep or Robben playing forward. At the end of this season though we seemed to dominate possession the team wasn't executing Pep's system 100% anymore, players got static and we weren't able to dominate the tempo of the game. We were successful in 12-13 when we played faster than Barca. Real Madrid beat us this season because they made the game slow, dictated that we had to come at them and then played incredibly fast as well as forcing us to play set pieces. In warfare you never let your opponent understand your system or strengths and never let them dictate the tempo. Those same principles apply everywhere whether in sports or business (that's why military likes athletes and I assume business likes ex military) and we need to get better at it again. Though I don't like Chelsea I will say their fans are right to defend that parking the bus is a legitimate strategy against teams that want to play fast. Unfortunately for them they also only had one strategy they were good at which is why they didn't win any titles .

BL(at end of long paragraph not)UF: let's make our opponents uncomfortable again

[MatZam]

This would still leave us with Ribery, Goetze, Kroos and Shaqiri on the bench, but we can't do anything about that... It's quite versatile, we can defend like we did against Dortmund but also go to 4-2-3-1 of the treble season or even a 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1.

[The Bavarian Oak]

Those of you who know me from "the other forum" know I've been talking about this since May 13.

The writing is on the wall in context clues that Guardiola is heading towards a 3-4-3.

The friendly vs. RB Salzburg, players we are linked with, youth teams (u17, 19) trying out 3 CBs, rumors from Guardiola's "inner circle", and now the cup final.

Here's how I think it will look next year. (please note - this is not necessarily what I want - this is just my prediction)

---------Lewandowski
------Gotze------Robben
Alaba--Thiago--Lahm--Cuadrado
----Luiz--Martinez--Boateng
-------------Neuer

What I want.

----------Lewandowski
-------Gotze--------Robben
Alaba--Thiago--Schweini--Lahm
--Benatia--Martinez--Boateng
--------------Neuer

[Firefox1234]

Those of you who know me from "the other forum" know I've been talking about this since May 13.

The writing is on the wall in context clues that Guardiola is heading towards a 3-4-3.

The friendly vs. RB Salzburg, players we are linked with, youth teams (u17, 19) trying out 3 CBs, rumors from Guardiola's "inner circle", and now the cup final.

Here's how I think it will look next year. (please note - this is not necessarily what I want - this is just my prediction)

---------Lewandowski
------Gotze------Robben
Alaba--Thiago--Lahm--Cuadrado
----Luiz--Martinez--Boateng
-------------Neuer

What I want.

----------Lewandowski
-------Gotze--------Robben
Alaba--Thiago--Schweini--Lahm
--Benatia--Martinez--Boateng
--------------Neuer

First of all welcome and if you haven't yet introduce yourself here! Second, top post!

It always puzzled me why the U17s and the U19s started playing with 3 in the back but it never occurred to me to put the pieces together!

Pep and the Bayern brass could be trying to change the way the entire clubs plays with this move. The sweeper role Martinez played especially speaks for the effectiveness this has vs high pressing, park the bus teams. Even before Pep arrived Bayern struggled vs teams that just sat and soaked up pressure and this could be the best move in dealing with it. Its ironic that we have to fear teams that sit back than ones that come at us. The front three was so dynamic in creating chances vs BvB while not leaving the defense to exposed. I hope your prediction is right and we see more if this type of football from Bayern in the future.

[The Bavarian Oak]

First of all welcome and if you haven't yet introduce yourself here! Second, top post!

Thanks! I will make an introduction.

It always puzzled me why the U17s and the U19s started playing with 3 in the back but it never occurred to me to put the pieces together!

Pep and the Bayern brass could be trying to change the way the entire clubs plays with this move. The sweeper role Martinez played especially speaks for the effectiveness this has vs high pressing, park the bus teams. Even before Pep arrived Bayern struggled vs teams that just sat and soaked up pressure and this could be the best move in dealing with it. Its ironic that we have to fear teams that sit back than ones that come at us. The front three was so dynamic in creating chances vs BvB while not leaving the defense to exposed. I hope your prediction is right and we see more if this type of football from Bayern in the future.

I agree Martinez looked especially brilliant in the 3-4-3.

I think you bring up very interesting points about how effective the 3-4-3 could be against teams who park the bus.

It would allow 7 players to get forward into attack without sacrificing our defensive stability because we'd have our (super ) sweeper Javi, Luiz, and Boateng still back in an organized defensive line. This, as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with only 2 CBs set and the others (DM/CM, RB, LB) pushed forward and struggling to track back from attack in a disorganized manner.

Also the 3 attacking players not having set positions I believe will help A TON. Instead of Ribery isolated on one wing and Robben on the other with a striker in the middle, all 3 of the attackers will be totally interchangeable and unpredictable. I think this will lead to more 1-2 passing in and around the box, our attackers overloading sides, and generally working better together and creating more chances.

Alaba and whoever the right-sided wing back is will also start playing more like a winger than a fullback IMO. Think Dani Alves. They'll help on defense, but it won't be as much of a priority anymore. They'll play more like a LM or RM. Should be interesting.

[Firefox1234]

First of all welcome and if you haven't yet introduce yourself here! Second, top post!

Thanks! I will make an introduction.

It always puzzled me why the U17s and the U19s started playing with 3 in the back but it never occurred to me to put the pieces together!

Pep and the Bayern brass could be trying to change the way the entire clubs plays with this move. The sweeper role Martinez played especially speaks for the effectiveness this has vs high pressing, park the bus teams. Even before Pep arrived Bayern struggled vs teams that just sat and soaked up pressure and this could be the best move in dealing with it. Its ironic that we have to fear teams that sit back than ones that come at us. The front three was so dynamic in creating chances vs BvB while not leaving the defense to exposed. I hope your prediction is right and we see more if this type of football from Bayern in the future.

I agree Martinez looked especially brilliant in the 3-4-3.

I think you bring up very interesting points about how effective the 3-4-3 could be against teams who park the bus.

It would allow 7 players to get forward into attack without sacrificing our defensive stability because we'd have our (super ) sweeper Javi, Luiz, and Boateng still back in an organized defensive line. This, as opposed to a 4-2-3-1 with only 2 CBs set and the others (DM/CM, RB, LB) pushed forward and struggling to track back from attack in a disorganized manner.

Also the 3 attacking players not having set positions I believe will help A TON. Instead of Ribery isolated on one wing and Robben on the other with a striker in the middle, all 3 of the attackers will be totally interchangeable and unpredictable. I think this will lead to more 1-2 passing in and around the box, our attackers overloading sides, and generally working better together and creating more chances.

Alaba and whoever the right-sided wing back is will also start playing more like a winger than a fullback IMO. Think Dani Alves. They'll help on defense, but it won't be as much of a priority anymore. They'll play more like a LM or RM. Should be interesting.

Wow great post again!

Next season if the 3 in the back system is perfect will be an exciting thing to watch, especially if we play teams like R.Madrid and by then the players will have a revitalized sense of urgency not to get humiliated again.

Like I said in a previous post I do not think Bayern's defensive issues were a personal issue more than a tactical one. As you said this time we will have 3 CBs in the defense without having to rely on the fullbacks to have to track back and risking getting caught with our pants down figuratively speaking.

Also with the addition of a more versatile striker like Lewandowski the offense should have a new found creativity in the final third as well. Just imagine Lewa barreling down on opponents without relying on service from his teammates to score.

The one issue I see that needs to be fixed is Bayern's poor defense on corners. When you look back to the R.Madrid match if it wasn't for those two headers by Ramos one could say Bayern was still very much in that game.

I am assuming this season was a experimental one for Pep and I wouldn't be surprised if he saw the flaws in the system from day one but decided to ride it since Bayern were still getting results.

[The Bavarian Oak]

The one issue I see that needs to be fixed is Bayern's poor defense on corners. When you look back to the R.Madrid match if it wasn't for those two headers by Ramos one could say Bayern was still very much in that game.

Hopefully 3 CBs will help this. Every corner makes me nervous.

I am assuming this season was a experimental one for Pep and I wouldn't be surprised if he saw the flaws in the system from day one but decided to ride it since Bayern were still getting results.

You're probably right.

Plus, if he benched some of the popular players right away that didn't fit in a 3-4-3 and it didn't succeed he would have gotten massive criticism.

[Firefox1234]

Kroos could be a backup in midfield, but I don't think there is a starting spot for him. There is no room for a sit-back-and-distribute/static type of player in the 3-4-3 who can't make it up and down the pitch effectively. He was able to play the stay back and distribute roll against Dortmund because all of our other CMs were injured. The central midfielders will have to work box-to-box next year.

We have plenty of players from the academy, and we have plenty more coming through. Kroos shouldn't be given special considerations because of that.

To add to my last post Kroos has a big role to play in Bayern in my opinion. Though his defensive skills need polishing he does make a lot of "key" passes that open up a teams defense and give spaces for the front three to attack. It was quite evident how important he was in the Pokal final vs BvB and Pep has given him that deep lying CM role similar to Pirlo and Xavi. His duties are not mainly defending but the focal point of attacks.

Xavi and Pirlo are players identical to Kroos but never face the same criticism from fans. It was clear from the way Pep set up the 3-4-3 that Kroos is meant to be the deep lying playmaker while Javi and the partner CM either Thiago/Schweinstiger are tracking back and forth cause they are more suited for that role. Similar to how Milan used to play back in the day when Pirlo would sit deep and Seedorf and Gattusso do most of the dirty work or even todays Juve. If Pep does use the 3 in the back system expect Kroos to have a key role in it.

Also he had 9 assists this season so he isnt just twiddling his thumbs he deserves to play.

[The Bavarian Oak]

Kroos could be a backup in midfield, but I don't think there is a starting spot for him. There is no room for a sit-back-and-distribute/static type of player in the 3-4-3 who can't make it up and down the pitch effectively. He was able to play the stay back and distribute roll against Dortmund because all of our other CMs were injured. The central midfielders will have to work box-to-box next year.

We have plenty of players from the academy, and we have plenty more coming through. Kroos shouldn't be given special considerations because of that.

To add to my last post Kroos has a big role to play in Bayern in my opinion. Though his defensive skills need polishing he does make a lot of "key" passes that open up a teams defense and give spaces for the front three to attack. It was quite evident how important he was in the Pokal final vs BvB and Pep has given him that deep lying CM role similar to Pirlo and Xavi. His duties are not mainly defending but the focal point of attacks.

Xavi and Pirlo are players identical to Kroos but never face the same criticism from fans. It was clear from the way Pep set up the 3-4-3 that Kroos is meant to be the deep lying playmaker while Javi and the partner CM either Thiago/Schweinstiger are tracking back and forth cause they are more suited for that role. Similar to how Milan used to play back in the day when Pirlo would sit deep and Seedorf and Gattusso do most of the dirty work or even todays Juve. If Pep does use the 3 in the back system expect Kroos to have a key role in it.

Also he had 9 assists this season so he isnt just twiddling his thumbs he deserves to play.

Like I said, I think he was allowed to be the deep distributer because he was the only DM/CM on the pitch for us so he was given the green light to sit in front of the 3 CBs.

One CM will be Philipp Lahm next year. The reports suggest that he is moving back to midfield, and Guardiola loves him there. Between Thiago and Kroos for the other CM, Thiago is far more dynamic.

9 assists is not too impressive. Look how many goals and assists Koke and Ramsey had - and they provide more on defense.

[Firefox1234]

Kroos could be a backup in midfield, but I don't think there is a starting spot for him. There is no room for a sit-back-and-distribute/static type of player in the 3-4-3 who can't make it up and down the pitch effectively. He was able to play the stay back and distribute roll against Dortmund because all of our other CMs were injured. The central midfielders will have to work box-to-box next year.

We have plenty of players from the academy, and we have plenty more coming through. Kroos shouldn't be given special considerations because of that.

To add to my last post Kroos has a big role to play in Bayern in my opinion. Though his defensive skills need polishing he does make a lot of "key" passes that open up a teams defense and give spaces for the front three to attack. It was quite evident how important he was in the Pokal final vs BvB and Pep has given him that deep lying CM role similar to Pirlo and Xavi. His duties are not mainly defending but the focal point of attacks.

Xavi and Pirlo are players identical to Kroos but never face the same criticism from fans. It was clear from the way Pep set up the 3-4-3 that Kroos is meant to be the deep lying playmaker while Javi and the partner CM either Thiago/Schweinstiger are tracking back and forth cause they are more suited for that role. Similar to how Milan used to play back in the day when Pirlo would sit deep and Seedorf and Gattusso do most of the dirty work or even todays Juve. If Pep does use the 3 in the back system expect Kroos to have a key role in it.

Also he had 9 assists this season so he isnt just twiddling his thumbs he deserves to play.

Like I said, I think he was allowed to be the deep distributer because he was the only DM/CM on the pitch for us so he was given the green light to sit in front of the 3 CBs.

One CM will be Philipp Lahm next year. The reports suggest that he is moving back to midfield, and Guardiola loves him there. Between Thiago and Kroos for the other CM, Thiago is far more dynamic.

9 assists is not too impressive. Look how many goals and assists Koke and Ramsey had - and they provide more on defense.

Koke and Ramsey are different from Kroos since they dont play similar roles. Kroos being a deep lying midfielder means his stats will take a bit of hit so his 3 goals and 9 assists are actually impressive. Ramsey and Koke had more license to push forward and attack the box so of course they would get a better goal and assist tally than Kroos. All you have to do is look at Kroos' stats when he played as an AM under Jupp and he definitely delivered. One season he bagged some 11 goals and 8 assists. For a deep lying CM like Kroos stats arent how they are measured to be honest. Unless you want to make the case Ramsey and Koke are better than Pirlo or Xavi.

[The Bavarian Oak]

Koke and Ramsey are different from Kroos since they dont play similar roles. Kroos being a deep lying midfielder means his stats will take a bit of hit so his 3 goals and 9 assists are actually impressive. Ramsey and Koke had more license to push forward and attack the box so of course they would get a better goal and assist tally than Kroos. All you have to do is look at Kroos' stats when he played as an AM under Jupp and he definitely delivered. One season he bagged some 11 goals and 8 assists. For a deep lying CM like Kroos stats arent how they are measured to be honest. Unless you want to make the case Ramsey and Koke are better than Pirlo or Xavi.

Well, Kroos at AM wasn't the same position as Koke and Ramsey either. Koke and Ramsey are box-to-box and can still dictate the tempo of a match and put in a shift defensively whilst putting up all those goals and assists.

I think Kroos lacks the ability to push forward and still recover fast enough on defense. Just my opinion from observation though.

In the 3-4-3 I don't see a position for a deep lying playmaker who doesn't get forward or contribute on defense. Against Dortmund Kroos was the only fit CM so he was allowed to play that position late in the match, which is the only time he looked decent IMO (1-70 min he was poor, 70-120 min he was good).

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Pep decides to use a deep lying playmaker in the Pirlo mould, then Kroos would be fine for that roll.

[MUTU]

The one issue I see that needs to be fixed is Bayern's poor defense on corners. When you look back to the R.Madrid match if it wasn't for those two headers by Ramos one could say Bayern was still very much in that game.

Hopefully 3 CBs will help this. Every corner makes me nervous.

Yeah, I'm hoping this will be resolved with Badstuber coming back. He used to be quite strong in the air.

[Badger]

Koke and Ramsey are different from Kroos since they dont play similar roles. Kroos being a deep lying midfielder means his stats will take a bit of hit so his 3 goals and 9 assists are actually impressive. Ramsey and Koke had more license to push forward and attack the box so of course they would get a better goal and assist tally than Kroos. All you have to do is look at Kroos' stats when he played as an AM under Jupp and he definitely delivered. One season he bagged some 11 goals and 8 assists. For a deep lying CM like Kroos stats arent how they are measured to be honest. Unless you want to make the case Ramsey and Koke are better than Pirlo or Xavi.

Well, Kroos at AM wasn't the same position as Koke and Ramsey either. Koke and Ramsey are box-to-box and can still dictate the tempo of a match and put in a shift defensively whilst putting up all those goals and assists.

I think Kroos lacks the ability to push forward and still recover fast enough on defense. Just my opinion from observation though.

In the 3-4-3 I don't see a position for a deep lying playmaker who doesn't get forward or contribute on defense. Against Dortmund Kroos was the only fit CM so he was allowed to play that position late in the match, which is the only time he looked decent IMO (1-70 min he was poor, 70-120 min he was good).

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Pep decides to use a deep lying playmaker in the Pirlo mould, then Kroos would be fine for that roll.

Kroos did a lot on Saturday, and had a good game. I’d rate him third best player in the game, after Martinez and Robben.

Let’s look at what he had to do. He had Lahm for about 25 min, and had a competent partner beside him for that time. After 25 min (and still 90+ min to go) he had Rafinha beside him on the left of midfield, who rarely played there, Hojbjerg on the right, who had a good game for an 18-year-old handed such a major start, but needed cover and support, and beside him centrally he supposedly had Ribery or Goetze, neither of whom played beside him like Lahm. The formation was more 3-3-3-1 than 3-4-3. So he was really handed a big task facing the Dortmund midfield and attack with a lightweight defensive midfield. (If we think Kroos should have been more box-to-box and spent more time on the edge of Dortmund’s penalty area we probably need to look at the formation, players and risks more closely.) And the fact remains that, in spite of the lightweight defensive midfield, this was one of Bayern’s best defensive displays against good opposition. Add to that Kroos’ stats for touches, tackles and passing accuracy, and I think we’d have to conclude that he was the unsung hero of the game.

Actually, after writing all that, I’ve now changed my mind. I’d rate Kroos the best player in the game…

[The Bavarian Oak]

Koke and Ramsey are different from Kroos since they dont play similar roles. Kroos being a deep lying midfielder means his stats will take a bit of hit so his 3 goals and 9 assists are actually impressive. Ramsey and Koke had more license to push forward and attack the box so of course they would get a better goal and assist tally than Kroos. All you have to do is look at Kroos' stats when he played as an AM under Jupp and he definitely delivered. One season he bagged some 11 goals and 8 assists. For a deep lying CM like Kroos stats arent how they are measured to be honest. Unless you want to make the case Ramsey and Koke are better than Pirlo or Xavi.

Well, Kroos at AM wasn't the same position as Koke and Ramsey either. Koke and Ramsey are box-to-box and can still dictate the tempo of a match and put in a shift defensively whilst putting up all those goals and assists.

I think Kroos lacks the ability to push forward and still recover fast enough on defense. Just my opinion from observation though.

In the 3-4-3 I don't see a position for a deep lying playmaker who doesn't get forward or contribute on defense. Against Dortmund Kroos was the only fit CM so he was allowed to play that position late in the match, which is the only time he looked decent IMO (1-70 min he was poor, 70-120 min he was good).

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Pep decides to use a deep lying playmaker in the Pirlo mould, then Kroos would be fine for that roll.

Kroos did a lot on Saturday, and had a good game. I’d rate him third best player in the game, after Martinez and Robben.

Let’s look at what he had to do. He had Lahm for about 25 min, and had a competent partner beside him for that time. After 25 min (and still 90+ min to go) he had Rafinha beside him on the left of midfield, who rarely played there, Hojbjerg on the right, who had a good game for an 18-year-old handed such a major start, but needed cover and support, and beside him centrally he supposedly had Ribery or Goetze, neither of whom played beside him like Lahm. The formation was more 3-3-3-1 than 3-4-3. So he was really handed a big task facing the Dortmund midfield and attack with a lightweight defensive midfield. (If we think Kroos should have been more box-to-box and spent more time on the edge of Dortmund’s penalty area we probably need to look at the formation, players and risks more closely.) And the fact remains that, in spite of the lightweight defensive midfield, this was one of Bayern’s best defensive displays against good opposition. Add to that Kroos’ stats for touches, tackles and passing accuracy, and I think we’d have to conclude that he was the unsung hero of the game.

Actually, after writing all that, I’ve now changed my mind. I’d rate Kroos the best player in the game…

I wouldn't go that far. Martinez at sweeper and the 3 man back line were the primary reason for the good defensive display.

Kroos was pretty poor from 1-70 minutes, but if you think he is the MOTM that's your call.

[Badger]

Kroos did a lot on Saturday, and had a good game. I’d rate him third best player in the game, after Martinez and Robben.

Let’s look at what he had to do. He had Lahm for about 25 min, and had a competent partner beside him for that time. After 25 min (and still 90+ min to go) he had Rafinha beside him on the left of midfield, who rarely played there, Hojbjerg on the right, who had a good game for an 18-year-old handed such a major start, but needed cover and support, and beside him centrally he supposedly had Ribery or Goetze, neither of whom played beside him like Lahm. The formation was more 3-3-3-1 than 3-4-3. So he was really handed a big task facing the Dortmund midfield and attack with a lightweight defensive midfield. (If we think Kroos should have been more box-to-box and spent more time on the edge of Dortmund’s penalty area we probably need to look at the formation, players and risks more closely.) And the fact remains that, in spite of the lightweight defensive midfield, this was one of Bayern’s best defensive displays against good opposition. Add to that Kroos’ stats for touches, tackles and passing accuracy, and I think we’d have to conclude that he was the unsung hero of the game.

Actually, after writing all that, I’ve now changed my mind. I’d rate Kroos the best player in the game…

I wouldn't go that far. Martinez at sweeper and the 3 man back line were the primary reason for the good defensive display.

Kroos was pretty poor from 1-70 minutes, but if you think he is the MOTM that's your call.

The Kroos MOTM comment was not meant seriously. Hence the smiley face. My true ratings were in the beginning of my post. I still can't see what you're focussing on and missing to rate Kroos as poor in the first half, but that's your call. Anyway, apologies. I'm drifting off topic. No doubt there'll be plenty more discussions in Kroos and Match threads about his role and contribution.

And, to attempt to write something on-topic, can I ask someone point me to the thread where there was a request for survey questions? Somewhere there I offered a question about 4-1-4-1 becoming a formation with 3 at the back in future, and I'd like to find it and elaborate on it here.