FC Bayern Forum

[Aequitas1987]

I see Shaqiri leaving for sure (which is a shame as I really liked Shaqiri). I think a lot of our 'guaranteed starters' will be sitting on the bench next season being replaced by the newcomers in Gotze, Lewandowski and Thiago. I think Gotze will really step up next season and bar any injuries he will be our star player next season most likely at the cost of Ribery.

CONCERN #1
What I am most worried about is what is Pep going to do with Martinez? I really really hope that he balances his possession with defensive stability a little bit and realizes the importance of having arguably the best CDM in the MIDFIELD and not in DEFENSE. Martinez is young with tonnes of athleticism and a knack for reading the game defensively (in midfield). I think if we end up losing Martinez that above all would be the biggest mistake Pep would have made. He needs to realize this and play Martinez as the anchor. Schweinsteiger as good as he is cant do it to the same capacity that Martinez can and he is getting old as well. Kroos and Thiago are not even close defensively.

CONCERN #2
What is Pep going to do with Muller? With Lewandowski coming in, I highly doubt Muller will have any chance of playing up front. As I predicted above it might be more likely of Gotze playing as a false 9 than Muller (cause I think Gotze will really perform next season). I really don't see any chance of him playing in the hole because most likely that spot will be cemented by Thiago or Kroos. In the wings Robben will have one spot cemented and the other would be most likely Gotze/Ribery. I am only talking here about the big games (CL games), in the bundesliga we can rotate around our starting 11 every week and get results and Pep can experiment with Muller as a false 9 or in the hole etc. In the big games I just can't seem to figure out where he would fit in but like Martinez I feel like he must start in his preferred position (i.e. in the hole).

This would be my ideal formation for next season but it would be highly unlikely knowing what we know about Pep so far.



I would be so excited to see the kind of magic that front five can do together, we can already see early signs of chemistry between Gotze and Muller and we know of the previous existing chemistry between Gotze & Lewandowski as well as Muller and Robben. I dont think Thiago to be honest needs any chemistry he just has the best sense of his teammates to deliver those deadly through-balls.

My other reasoning for choosing some of the players I did in my ideal formation is again what we have been talking about the past few weeks and which is that HUNGER. Gotze, Thiago, Lewandowski and hopefully Benatia all still have a point to prove and will have that hunger. Badstuber will be super motivated after his long lay off. I also honestly believe that from our treble winning lineup the players that still consistently display that hunger are Lahm, Martinez, Robben and Muller.

Obviously this is a highly unlikely lineup because Muller in particular seems like the odd one out here because he doesn't suit Peps ultra possession philosophy (he simply isn't as technically gifted as the others). However if Pep wants to play faster against Park the Bus teams he needs to realize that he needs players like Muller to create that off the ball movement and the quick 1-2s and take those through-ball risks that can open up those defenses.

No Ribery, No Schweinsteiger, No Kroos. I think that this instead is a far more likely lineup provided we don't lost one of our big players or bring in a big attacker/midfielder.

[formation]Neuer - Lahm, Benatia, Dante/Badstuber, Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Robben, Thiago, Kroos, Gotze - Lewandowski[/formation]

This is still a very good lineup but I just feel that the balance on both ends is lacking for pro-possession. This lineup will always put up better possession numbers than my ideal formation but it won't be as balanced defensively (lack of Martinez in midfield) and in my honest opinion it won't be as dangerous offensively at breaking down Park The Bus teams in big games as having Muller playing off Lewandowski would be because Lewandowski like Muller really understands how to manipulate space.

[FCBayernMunchen]

I see Shaqiri leaving for sure (which is a shame as I really liked Shaqiri). I think a lot of our 'guaranteed starters' will be sitting on the bench next season being replaced by the newcomers in Gotze, Lewandowski and Thiago. I think Gotze will really step up next season and bar any injuries he will be our star player next season most likely at the cost of Ribery.

CONCERN #1
What I am most worried about is what is Pep going to do with Martinez? I really really hope that he balances his possession with defensive stability a little bit and realizes the importance of having arguably the best CDM in the MIDFIELD and not in DEFENSE. Martinez is young with tonnes of athleticism and a knack for reading the game defensively (in midfield). I think if we end up losing Martinez that above all would be the biggest mistake Pep would have made. He needs to realize this and play Martinez as the anchor. Schweinsteiger as good as he is cant do it to the same capacity that Martinez can and he is getting old as well. Kroos and Thiago are not even close defensively.

CONCERN #2
What is Pep going to do with Muller? With Lewandowski coming in, I highly doubt Muller will have any chance of playing up front. As I predicted above it might be more likely of Gotze playing as a false 9 than Muller (cause I think Gotze will really perform next season). I really don't see any chance of him playing in the hole because most likely that spot will be cemented by Thiago or Kroos. In the wings Robben will have one spot cemented and the other would be most likely Gotze/Ribery. I am only talking here about the big games (CL games), in the bundesliga we can rotate around our starting 11 every week and get results and Pep can experiment with Muller as a false 9 or in the hole etc. In the big games I just can't seem to figure out where he would fit in but like Martinez I feel like he must start in his preferred position (i.e. in the hole).

This would be my ideal formation for next season but it would be highly unlikely knowing what we know about Pep so far.



I would be so excited to see the kind of magic that front five can do together, we can already see early signs of chemistry between Gotze and Muller and we know of the previous existing chemistry between Gotze & Lewandowski as well as Muller and Robben. I dont think Thiago to be honest needs any chemistry he just has the best sense of his teammates to deliver those deadly through-balls.

My other reasoning for choosing some of the players I did in my ideal formation is again what we have been talking about the past few weeks and which is that HUNGER. Gotze, Thiago, Lewandowski and hopefully Benatia all still have a point to prove and will have that hunger. Badstuber will be super motivated after his long lay off. I also honestly believe that from our treble winning lineup the players that still consistently display that hunger are Lahm, Martinez, Robben and Muller.

Obviously this is a highly unlikely lineup because Muller in particular seems like the odd one out here because he doesn't suit Peps ultra possession philosophy (he simply isn't as technically gifted as the others). However if Pep wants to play faster against Park the Bus teams he needs to realize that he needs players like Muller to create that off the ball movement and the quick 1-2s and take those through-ball risks that can open up those defenses.

No Ribery, No Schweinsteiger, No Kroos. I think that this instead is a far more likely lineup provided we don't lost one of our big players or bring in a big attacker/midfielder.

[formation]Neuer - Lahm, Benatia, Dante/Badstuber, Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Robben, Thiago, Kroos, Gotze - Lewandowski[/formation]

This is still a very good lineup but I just feel that the balance on both ends is lacking for pro-possession. This lineup will always put up better possession numbers than my ideal formation but it won't be as balanced defensively (lack of Martinez in midfield) and in my honest opinion it won't be as dangerous offensively at breaking down Park The Bus teams in big games as having Muller playing off Lewandowski would be because Lewandowski like Muller really understands how to manipulate space.

I am thinking more or less along the same lines as you, but I do think Schweinsteiger must play. Taking your example of buying Benatia, I would say that the obly other transfer needed is a new LB, preferably defensive-minded, if Shaqiri and Kroos stay. I would then go with this:


This is assuming a few things.
1) Ribery does not improve drastically.
2) Robben keeps playing very well.

I have also thought about Muller's position a lot. I think it comes down to what we're trying to do. I hope to see, to use someone else's term, the creation of a Bayern 2.0 in terms of tactics next year. This is what I foresee it to be:
1) A team that is very difficult to score against because opponents see very little of the ball (yes, possession) and when they do they will he up against a strong midfield (Martinez-Basti), a strong defence (Benatia-Dante), and the best GK (Neuer).
2) A team that presses very quickly. I once saw a video of Guardiola's Barca called the 5 second rule or something like that, where they almost always won the ball within 5 seconds of losing it. We've seen glimpses of that this season, even against big teams. Prior to conceding the goal, we were doing it against Real Madrid in the first leg. It must become second nature to Bayern, and with Martinez in midfield it becomes easier.
3) A team that can transition very quickly between defence and attack (both through the centre and the wings), so that in the few chances teams get against us we can kill them on the counter. Here I want Loew's 5 second rule. He once said something along the lines of "I want to see the ball in the net within 5 seconds of winning it." This gives us the additional advantage that teams will grow afraid and commit forward less. This automatically makes our defence much better because our opponents would be very catious in the few chances they get and their players will likely end up isolating themselves. This is the thing that Guardiola must work most on.
4) What about our attacks when we have the ball, such as chances that start through counterattacks? The whole idea of being a Bayern 2.0 means that there are elements of the previous Bayern. Here I must insist that we stick to what we are doing: tiki taka. But we need to see the tiki taka of 2008. Our forwards must have perfect positioning and pinpoint passing, through balls, lobs. Anything to break down 8-man defences. Our tiki taka must be not passing around the box but passing inside it. With world class positioning and passing this will work even with so many players in the box. And if it doesn't and we lose the ball, that is not a big problem for a team that's mastered winning the ball back and countering, which takes me to point 5.
5) I can already see us losing the ball in the opponent's area, our opponents attempting a counter, Schweinsteiger winning the ball back and letting lose a cannon shot. Long shots have to be a part of our game. Our midfielders and wingers must not be afraid to take long shots when they see an opening. It should be a part of our normal game and we should resort more to it when things aren't working. We've seen it sometimes this season, such as in the second leg vs Man United, but we haven't seen it nearly often enough.
6) We must have two defenders and one midfielder strong in the air at least. We have that in Martinez and Dante, and I think Benatia? (Haven't seen much of him). This already helps a lot in defending setpieces but we must also figure out a reliable way of defending them tactically. Guardiola and his staff must sit down and analyse last Tuesday's game well as well all other games where we conceded from free kicks and corners. Improvement in this area is a must. Offensively I do not think we are as bad as some of you have made it out to be. I think we are more dangerous in the air and from corners/free kicks since Guardiola took over, although admittedly we can improve too. What I'd like to see is more goals directly from dead ball situations. Alaba used to score many nice free kicks in training and unimportant games. Maybe we should give him more chances?
7) Our forwards, especially Lewandowski, must have a brilliant first touch.
We must have perfect in-game adaptations to turn things around in the inevitable games were it's not working out. This is what worries me the least because Guardiola has shown us this season that he's the best in the world in doing that. His subs almost always change the game and although he may be a stubborn guy, he's not afraid to change formation in-game. Next season he'll have more options. For example, if Lewa is marked closely and outnumbered, taking him out of the game as Mandzu was against Real, he can introduce Mandzukic, switching to two strikers in the boz and drawing defenders away from Lewandowski to mark Mandzukic.
9) Especially when doing so but also when playing with one striker we must have very good crosses. This goes along with what I said earlier about pinpoint passes but it deserves special recognition because the one advantage we have over the 2008 Barcelona is our player's height. We don't take advantage of that as much as we should. Lahm at right back already helps that a lot. If we are not crossing well we can introduce the two players who are in my opinion the best two crossers we have: Ribery and Shaqiri. We have a wealth of options and our bench players offer different qualities from the others.

In my idea of a Bayern 2.0 I think that Muller is the perfect man on the right wing, which would unfortunately see Robben dropped. Robben offers his own qualities which can be useful to the style, but perhaps he might be more effective playing a super-sub role. We'll have a rotation system in place anyway so I'm not too worried about who should start. Actually rotation doesn't worry me at all because if we go for a full B-team we'd still have one of the best sides in Europe.

If we can implement our tactics, this would be our ideal (though perhaps controversial), lineup:




Just imagine... it's actually a very realistic squad and the biggest challenge is not getting players to move here but convincing them to stay.

Transfers:
IN: Lewandowski, Rode, Benatia, LB
OUT: Contento, Van Buyten
LOAN: Hojbjerg
STAY: Kroos, Shaqiri, Pizarro (the latter not a must bet preferably)

I will start praying every day to see this post come true.

[Aequitas1987]

I am thinking more or less along the same lines as you, but I do think Schweinsteiger must play. Taking your example of buying Benatia, I would say that the obly other transfer needed is a new LB, preferably defensive-minded, if Shaqiri and Kroos stay. I would then go with this:


This is assuming a few things.
1) Ribery does not improve drastically.
2) Robben keeps playing very well.

I have also thought about Muller's position a lot. I think it comes down to what we're trying to do. I hope to see, to use someone else's term, the creation of a Bayern 2.0 in terms of tactics next year. This is what I foresee it to be:
1) A team that is very difficult to score against because opponents see very little of the ball (yes, possession) and when they do they will he up against a strong midfield (Martinez-Basti), a strong defence (Benatia-Dante), and the best GK (Neuer).
2) A team that presses very quickly. I once saw a video of Guardiola's Barca called the 5 second rule or something like that, where they almost always won the ball within 5 seconds of losing it. We've seen glimpses of that this season, even against big teams. Prior to conceding the goal, we were doing it against Real Madrid in the first leg. It must become second nature to Bayern, and with Martinez in midfield it becomes easier.
3) A team that can transition very quickly between defence and attack (both through the centre and the wings), so that in the few chances teams get against us we can kill them on the counter. Here I want Loew's 5 second rule. He once said something along the lines of "I want to see the ball in the net within 5 seconds of winning it." This gives us the additional advantage that teams will grow afraid and commit forward less. This automatically makes our defence much better because our opponents would be very catious in the few chances they get and their players will likely end up isolating themselves. This is the thing that Guardiola must work most on.
4) What about our attacks when we have the ball, such as chances that start through counterattacks? The whole idea of being a Bayern 2.0 means that there are elements of the previous Bayern. Here I must insist that we stick to what we are doing: tiki taka. But we need to see the tiki taka of 2008. Our forwards must have perfect positioning and pinpoint passing, through balls, lobs. Anything to break down 8-man defences. Our tiki taka must be not passing around the box but passing inside it. With world class positioning and passing this will work even with so many players in the box. And if it doesn't and we lose the ball, that is not a big problem for a team that's mastered winning the ball back and countering, which takes me to point 5.
5) I can already see us losing the ball in the opponent's area, our opponents attempting a counter, Schweinsteiger winning the ball back and letting lose a cannon shot. Long shots have to be a part of our game. Our midfielders and wingers must not be afraid to take long shots when they see an opening. It should be a part of our normal game and we should resort more to it when things aren't working. We've seen it sometimes this season, such as in the second leg vs Man United, but we haven't seen it nearly often enough.
6) We must have two defenders and one midfielder strong in the air at least. We have that in Martinez and Dante, and I think Benatia? (Haven't seen much of him). This already helps a lot in defending setpieces but we must also figure out a reliable way of defending them tactically. Guardiola and his staff must sit down and analyse last Tuesday's game well as well all other games where we conceded from free kicks and corners. Improvement in this area is a must. Offensively I do not think we are as bad as some of you have made it out to be. I think we are more dangerous in the air and from corners/free kicks since Guardiola took over, although admittedly we can improve too. What I'd like to see is more goals directly from dead ball situations. Alaba used to score many nice free kicks in training and unimportant games. Maybe we should give him more chances?
7) Our forwards, especially Lewandowski, must have a brilliant first touch.
We must have perfect in-game adaptations to turn things around in the inevitable games were it's not working out. This is what worries me the least because Guardiola has shown us this season that he's the best in the world in doing that. His subs almost always change the game and although he may be a stubborn guy, he's not afraid to change formation in-game. Next season he'll have more options. For example, if Lewa is marked closely and outnumbered, taking him out of the game as Mandzu was against Real, he can introduce Mandzukic, switching to two strikers in the boz and drawing defenders away from Lewandowski to mark Mandzukic.
9) Especially when doing so but also when playing with one striker we must have very good crosses. This goes along with what I said earlier about pinpoint passes but it deserves special recognition because the one advantage we have over the 2008 Barcelona is our player's height. We don't take advantage of that as much as we should. Lahm at right back already helps that a lot. If we are not crossing well we can introduce the two players who are in my opinion the best two crossers we have: Ribery and Shaqiri. We have a wealth of options and our bench players offer different qualities from the others.

In my idea of a Bayern 2.0 I think that Muller is the perfect man on the right wing, which would unfortunately see Robben dropped. Robben offers his own qualities which can be useful to the style, but perhaps he might be more effective playing a super-sub role. We'll have a rotation system in place anyway so I'm not too worried about who should start. Actually rotation doesn't worry me at all because if we go for a full B-team we'd still have one of the best sides in Europe.

If we can implement our tactics, this would be our ideal (though perhaps controversial), lineup:




Just imagine... it's actually a very realistic squad and the biggest challenge is not getting players to move here but convincing them to stay.

Transfers:
IN: Lewandowski, Rode, Benatia, LB
OUT: Contento, Van Buyten
LOAN: Hojbjerg
STAY: Kroos, Shaqiri, Pizarro (the latter not a must bet preferably)

I will start praying every day to see this post come true.

I like your idea of incorporating the two five second rules, one of Barcelona's pressing system with Germanys counter-attack philosophy. My fear is that according to Pep these two philosophies contradict. If you go with Loew's 5 second attack philosophy it means you take far more risks which means you have a much higher chance of losing possession which Guardiola won't be happy with. I really hope he lets go of some of the possession statistics for pressing and ability to win the ball back. He should encourage players to take long shots and through balls at the same time encourage players to press aggressively to make up for those risks if they don't pan out.

I like your lineup with Muller on the wings I personally prefer him in the hole but after the season Robben has had I just don't see him dropping off. Unless as usual he gets an early season injury (which is knowing Robben a serious possibility) then we can potentially see your lineup in action.

Also both of us believe that Kroos should not be in the starting 11 and that is also a very very difficult case to argue knowing how crucial he has been in Pep's plans so far. In my books Thiago, Martinez and Schweinsteiger definitely bring more to the table.

I want to go all crazy tactically now, lets look back at the united game and Pep's really revolutionary strategy of playing Alaba and Lahm as half-backs? Also lets back at some more experimentation he did with a 3 man defense. I know just thinking these things might make most of us shit ourselves in fear but knowing Pep its not a long shot. He as a coach is always in search of that next level of football tactics and perfectionism maybe he can come up with something completely unorthodox that we have never seen before. I wanted your opinion on this crazy formation Daniel.

A 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 formation.



Obviously like most formations this is not a fixed shape, it changes based on attack, press and pure defense. Also I have put some players in positions that might surprise some people. For e.g. I put Schweinsteiger is defense instead of Martinez because I truly believe that Martinez is much better suited in midfield whereas Schweinsteiger is a more calming presence in defense and can organize our defense with Lahm being pushed further up. Also with his age I see Schweinsteiger taking more of a Pirlo like role of deep lying playmaker, just imagine those defense to goal scoring opportunities crosses that Dante used to do but this time being executed by Schweinsteiger. I also think its quite easy for Martinez and Schweinsteiger to switch if needed if one pushes further forward. In Jupp's season Schweinsteiger was almost like our 3rd CB (like Kroos is nowadays) coming back to collect the ball from our CB then creating the attack.

Alaba and Lahm both have proven they can play centrally (Lahm this season and Alaba for Austria) they are both technically gifted. Along with Martinez you can argue that they cover the most ground (i.e. our most hard working players) so they can potentially play the half-back roles like the united game to perfection, i.e. cover the space left behind them for winged counter-attacks.

In a pure defense we would almost become a 5 - 1 - 3 - 1 formation. During pressing we will have our best pressers / ball winners in my opinion in midfield. It would also allow players like Alaba to go for long shots much more often. We will also be able to reap the rewards of Lahms midfield bossing and possession (hes been our best player under Pep in midfield) and not lose out on him commanding the defense because Schweinsteiger can take care of that.

CONS:
1. Winged Counter Attacks
2. Lahms crossing becomes negligible.
3. Our attacking wing-play becomes weaker (Robben , Gotze, Muller being more isolated).

PROS:
1. More physical presence
2. Better midfield control
3. IMO Better pressing
4. Unpredictability

[Badger]

^^ May I ask whether you have been following Bayern for a long time?

[Element]

^^ May I ask whether you have been following Bayern for a long time?

He calls Kroos Stupid and useless and wants to sell him for 45 million euros?!!!

Thats weird

[München Minded]

If only we all knew what was in Pep's head, but it seems obvious he will build a team that will live up to his ideas. This season unfortunately gave him that perspective. I'm curious who he offloads and what the formation for the future will be built around.
Key questions:
Will Ribéry be a key part and contributor?
Where will Götze fit in? or will he remain a €37 mill bench player?
What about Schweini vs Martinez (another huge fee bench player) if we only play one DM?
What about Lahm staying RB or permanently move to DM, then what becomes of Schweini and Martinez?

and the list could go on, but I sure hope Pep doesn't plan on turning Bayern into Barca 2.0 and get players to match that (possibly raid Barca this summer??? god no).

Pep seemed like a good move, but in terms of what we traditionally expect of Bayern and German players in the team and how we play, things could get a lot different after this season's CL exit.

[FCBayernMunchen]

@Aequitas:

Your concern that Pep might see the two systems as contradictory is logical, but I choose to believe that he will realise he must change some things up. He has said he must reconcile old Bayern and new Bayern, so both players and coach must adapt. I trust Pep enough to believe he isn't lying. I think my proposition does exactly that.

It's unlikely that such a system will be perfected in just a preseason. It might take the whole duration of Pep's contract if not more. Perhaps Pep will perfect some aspects while another coach perfects others. I do hope that we both aspire to play like this next season as well as actually pull it off though. I think that squad with those tactics is the closest to unstoppable you could possibly get. If any coach can pull it off in a very short time it's Guardiola but I'll be happy if he doesn't as lpng as we are actually trying to do so.

Regarding your lineup it experiments too much, even for Pep. I think we'll see more of the formation but I think it'll be with Martinez at CB or Martinez dropped. Can't see Pep moving Schweini out of midfield even with all his rotating positions. Can't say I'll be looking forward to such a formation but I think it's a realistic possibility and who knows, it might work.

As for the half back idea, I posted about that some days ago in this thread, although I used a 4-1-4-1 formation.

[AllensRoten]

Mandzukic, Muller, Lewandowski, Pizarro

Ribery, Gotze, Thiago, Kroos, Rode, Schweinsteiger, Shaqiri, Robben

Alaba, Contento, Dante, Van Buyten, Badstuber, Boateng, Javi, Lahm, Rafinha

Neuer

Is anyone foaming at the mouth yet for the new season to start???

Although the real question is, who from this list of names will still be here at the start of next season?

[München Minded]

Contento and Van Buyten will be gone.

I hope Javi stays as well as Kroos. I think Kroos would be stupid to move on, but our midfield is fairly crowded. Could be possible Shaqiri goes, but would be nice for him to remain if he is fine as a backup on the wings as Ribéry and Robben are bound to have enough injuries.

Don't forget Starke as Neuer's backup.

[ramsej84]

I guess that next season we'll see a 4-3-3 formation (Pep's Barca's style without Martinez & Kroos Ribery & Robben or Martinez will be again employed as CB with a new recruit )

[Fénix]

So we need a backup GK(Zinglere will be the 3rd choice), someone who can replace Alaba(LB), one new CB and third striker if Pizarro leaves what is very likely. 4-5 new players at least.

We're getting a new player in Rode, that's one, backup GK will be two, new CB three and the rest will be either striker or new fullback.

[München Minded]

I guess that next season we'll see a 4-3-3 formation (Pep's Barca's style without Martinez & Kroos Ribery & Robben or Martinez will be again employed as CB with a new recruit )

The ideal thing I like about this, is that we have more of a German based first 11 -- especially the front line. I love Ribéry and Robben, and they are beloved to me, a lot of forum people, the club -- but in some ways I fear their best years are behind them; and I don't want to waste the "youthful" Müller. I like him best on the wings as you have him. I also like Götze played out wide, and I fear him currently getting unsettled because he is not used enough and praised enough by the club. Yes, Götze needs to up his performances, but he is a player like Ribéry, needing special attention.

I also see Pep wanting Thiago to play consistently, and Schweini is a must. I would love Lahm as RB and Javi as DM, but it seems like Pep wants Lahm as DM for his system. If Badstuber comes back strong I would say he is the starting CB next to Dante.

Good formation. Wanted to add that this is a more offensive one, unless the whole team adapts to Pep's system and our defensive line is really strong. A lot depends on the DM, which luckily we have Lahm if he's played there. But also depends on who the RB is and the CBs are. With Neuer on his game, this formation and Pep's system works.

[JJJ]

What's wrong with Starke?

[FCBayernMunchen]

What's wrong with Starke?

At the moment injured. Next season... well I personally don't think he's good enough. I prefer Raeder but he is leaving us.

[Fénix]

What's wrong with Starke?

At the moment injured. Next season... well I personally don't think he's good enough. I prefer Raeder but he is leaving us.

I think he told once in this season that won't extend with Bayern, but I'm not sure though.