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2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Badger » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:14 pm

Achilles wrote:...
The game against Eintracht showed that for a 4-1-4-1 formation two playmakers doesn't stack.Of course I'm reffering to Thiago & Kroos partnership...


I enjoyed reading your analysis, but I feel that it misses too many significant factors and too may alternative conclusions. Two of the other conclusions which need to be refuted are:

- Mandzukic, playing as a striker, is a catalyst, and Kroos, Alcantara or Kroos+Alcantara (and indeed most of the midfield) will all appear to function better when Mandzukic is up front.
- A false nine can work, but Guardiola hasn’t yet got a player to the standard where he can pull it off.

I am still weighing these factors up, and think I need a few more matches before I can form any conclusions on these factors, or on the ones you and others are mentioning, ie Kroos and Alcantara can’t play together and false nine doesn’t work.

For the record, I am beginning to think that Goetze as a false nine is as you say – good for a few “hey surprise” moments. I think that that is more of a reflection on Goetze’s ability in the role than on the false-nine strategy. Mueller has been less than convincing in that role too. Actually, I think that Mandzukic may also be the best false nine Bayern has at the moment. Pizarro didn’t look to bad playing a in something like that role too. Strikers merging back into the midfield may work better than midfielders popping up as strikers. Time will tell.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Achilles » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:37 pm

Badger wrote:
Achilles wrote:...
The game against Eintracht showed that for a 4-1-4-1 formation two playmakers doesn't stack.Of course I'm reffering to Thiago & Kroos partnership...


I enjoyed reading your analysis, but I feel that it misses too many significant factors and too may alternative conclusions. Two of the other conclusions which need to be refuted are:

- Mandzukic, playing as a striker, is a catalyst, and Kroos, Alcantara or Kroos+Alcantara (and indeed most of the midfield) will all appear to function better when Mandzukic is up front.
- A false nine can work, but Guardiola hasn’t yet got a player to the standard where he can pull it off.

I am still weighing these factors up, and think I need a few more matches before I can form any conclusions on these factors, or on the ones you and others are mentioning, ie Kroos and Alcantara can’t play together and false nine doesn’t work.

For the record, I am beginning to think that Goetze as a false nine is as you say – good for a few “hey surprise” moments. I think that that is more of a reflection on Goetze’s ability in the role than on the false-nine strategy. Mueller has been less than convincing in that role too. Actually, I think that Mandzukic may also be the best false nine Bayern has at the moment. Pizarro didn’t look to bad playing a in something like that role too. Strikers merging back into the midfield may work better than midfielders popping up as strikers. Time will tell.
I fully understand your concern but I gave a try because I got to these conclusions before the winterpause and tonights game somehow proved it,that doesn't mean that I'm right.

Someone can say that Eintracht isn't a real test and you can't get a conclusion because of this home game but when we have to? This Bayern even at his bad performance doesn't loose,the winterpause is over and somehow we have to sum this up,there were troublesome performances at the 1st round,Pep made his subs and we won,in other matches Bayern's dominance didn't gave a chance to any opponent(even City)
I'm talking after Schweinsteiger surgery,when Thiago and Kroos were playing together.
Now about Mandzukic,yes you are right but we played many more times with Mandzukic as a striker than Gotze so we can jump up to a conclusion.I think we agree that Mandzukic needs a versatile player next to him(Muller,Gotze) to perform at his best and not how Pep neutralizes the Croat sending him for support at the wings and force him to play some crosses.

Well,I think that the real tests about all these tactical things are the games against Arsenal,against a powerhouse at the highest level(CL) but I think is worthing a mention about Kroos/Thiago and Gotze/Mandzukic,personally I enjoy Bayern playing with a natural striker and I enjoy Gotze playing as a midfielder :)
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby raz25 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:39 pm

Do you guys think Martinez or Schweinsteiger can regain their spot on the 1st 11 when they will be fully fit?

I know some of you think we don't have an official 11 anymore, but truth is that our back four always stays the same and Ribery, Robben and Kroos (with one exception) always started when available. So we have 3 spots left to maneuver and considering the form Gotze, Thiago and Mandzukic are in I find it hard to find a spot for them, not to mention that there's also Muller waiting in line.

At the moment, I think Lahm as DM offers more than Schweinsteiger and Martinez and it simply suits him better, he is our captain after all. I just don't see the need for a player like Martinez in our team anymore except maybe for games against Barcelona or Dortmund. Our great pressing and positioning neutralizes the need for great tacklers or muscle in our team. Schweinsteiger could take Rafinha's place but Lahm is simply outstanding as DM, that's gotta be his main concern, not to mention his ridiculous inconsistency because of injuries.
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2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:59 pm

raz25 wrote:Do you guys think Martinez or Schweinsteiger can regain their spot on the 1st 11 when they will be fully fit?

I know some of you think we don't have an official 11 anymore, but truth is that our back four always stays the same and Ribery, Robben and Kroos (with one exception) always started when available. So we have 3 spots left to maneuver and considering the form Gotze, Thiago and Mandzukic are in I find it hard to find a spot for them, not to mention that there's also Muller waiting in line.

At the moment, I think Lahm as DM offers more than Schweinsteiger and Martinez and it simply suits him better, he is our captain after all. I just don't see the need for a player like Martinez in our team anymore except maybe for games against Barcelona or Dortmund. Our great pressing and positioning neutralizes the need for great tacklers or muscle in our team. Schweinsteiger could take Rafinha's place but Lahm is simply outstanding as DM, that's gotta be his main concern, not to mention his ridiculous inconsistency because of injuries.

To be honest im not to sure about any of them since neither Martinez nor Schweinstiger were convincing enough when they played as the single pivot, at least in Pep's eyes. Maybe both need to stay healthy so they can fully embrace their new roles but at the moment they could be left out unless they regain a bit of consistency
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Badger » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:05 pm

raz25 wrote:Do you guys think Martinez or Schweinsteiger can regain their spot on the 1st 11 when they will be fully fit?

I know some of you think we don't have an official 11 anymore, but truth is that our back four always stays the same and Ribery, Robben and Kroos (with one exception) always started when available. So we have 3 spots left to maneuver and considering the form Gotze, Thiago and Mandzukic are in I find it hard to find a spot for them, not to mention that there's also Muller waiting in line.

At the moment, I think Lahm as DM offers more than Schweinsteiger and Martinez and it simply suits him better, he is our captain after all. I just don't see the need for a player like Martinez in our team anymore except maybe for games against Barcelona or Dortmund. Our great pressing and positioning neutralizes the need for great tacklers or muscle in our team. Schweinsteiger could take Rafinha's place but Lahm is simply outstanding as DM, that's gotta be his main concern, not to mention his ridiculous inconsistency because of injuries.


Good post - dealing sensitively with some unpalatable facts about Bayern.

I am one of the members who no longer believes in a starting XI - at least, not in Guardiola's Bayern. Yes, there may be a few players who play a lot, but some of that reflects the huge number of injuries we've had. Now that we have more fit players, things will change, and the selection for the Frankfurt game was a taster of what is to come. Overall, I think we'll see a starting 17-18 players, and the rest of the squad as occasional players in minor games.

Martinez and Schweinsteiger? I am not sure yet, but I am thinking privately that Schweinsteiger will play a lot, in various central midfield roles, if he can return to his previous form. Martinez, I fear, is not succeeding in Guardiola's system, and may be moved on. He is too slow for the defensive midfield role in a 4-1-4-1, and hasn't enough ability to build up attacking play from that deep role. I reckon that Lahm will continue in that role all season.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby AdepT » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:19 pm

Once Basti is 'fully' fit, the DM position is where he'll play. He was playing through pain in the beginning and was almost always subbed out. I am sure he'll play like a boss as he always does when he achieves full fitness. In the no 8 positions two of Kroos/Gotze/Thiago are going to be starters. In important games, Kroos is a surety. CF's choice would depend upon opposition. I'd give 51-49 to Mueller and Mandzukic respectively.

It really hurts me but seeing the way Pep has played Martinez in different positions I believe he isn't a certainty in the starting 11. And even less are the chances of coming from bench as two of Mueller/Mandzukic/Robben/Thiago/Gotze are going to come in to lend a new dimension to attack in the final 20 minutes.

Come the summer, prepare yourselves for an exodus. Mandzukic for all the fighter strength he has may very likely leave. Pretty much like Gomez, he has won everything and a confirmed starting spot at Juve isn't that bad. I just fear that he'll make them even better.
Martinez could ask questions but I don't believe he will. He seems like a calm guy. I hope he reclaims his position.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:24 pm

Like I mentioned yesterday, I have my doubts whether either of them will cement a regular position. I think one will succeed in replacing Rafinha but even that's not certain, and I am almost sure we will not get to see both playing together in midfield regularly.

That said, whether they are part of the optimal lineup or not, I am sure that both will play a lot of games.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby AdepT » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:29 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Like I mentioned yesterday, I have my doubts whether either of them will cement a regular position. I think one will succeed in replacing Rafinha but even that's not certain, and I am almost sure we will not get to see both playing together in midfield regularly.

That said, whether they are part of the optimal lineup or not, I am sure that both will play a lot of games.

As good as Rafinha has been doing, he's the guy on the peripheral when all are fit.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Achilles » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:53 pm

raz25 wrote:Do you guys think Martinez or Schweinsteiger can regain their spot on the 1st 11 when they will be fully fit?
Schweinsteiger yes
Martinez no

Schweini played under pain and this justifies some bad performances but I really do recall some superb performances against top teams such as Leverkusen & Schalke then with City & Plzen.
The only "bad thing" when Schweinsteiger played that I saw on him was his bad fitness,he was clearly 2 levels down on everything than the regular Schweinsteiger but tactically he wasn't bad and he had some nice moments as I mentioned.
Personally what Bayern is missing right now to perform day in day out like against Eintrach,City,Leverkusen is Schweinsteiger,because he can help in every aspect of our game and statistics.He can defend better than any of our current starters(mid) can command the midfield,keeping possesion perfectly and having at least 87% passing accuracy,so I don't see why Schweinsteiger can't make it through the starting XI,afterall we can see Lahm back at RB but even if this won't happen then will be a rotation with Thiago-Kroos +Schweini.

Against Chelsea(CL final) were video interviews before that,Arjen Robben announced his preffered XI said "Schweini is our commander,I feel more comfortable when he is on the pitch" when a player with Arjen's charachter says that means something,some players can make things happen just with their presence and positioning on the pitch,Schweinsteiger to Bayern has that ability,I've seen this many times,this year Pep pulled it off and we're going perfect though.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby JJJ » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:29 pm

AdepT wrote:a confirmed starting spot at Juve isn't that bad..

Llorente, Tevez.
Früchtl
Hummels, Badstuber, Alaba
Müller, Fein, Kroos, Can, Schöpf
Wagner, Zirkzee

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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby AdepT » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:46 pm

JJJ wrote:
AdepT wrote:a confirmed starting spot at Juve isn't that bad..

Llorente, Tevez.

I said that keeping them in mind. :)
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:10 pm

AdepT wrote:As good as Rafinha has been doing, he's the guy on the peripheral when all are fit.

But it remains to be seen whether Schweini can consistently play well as the lone DM. In a way he is fighting for a spot directly with Lahm rather than Rafinha, but if Lahm loses he will still get to play in a different position.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Constantine » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:31 pm

I am pretty sure Thiago & Goetze will ride the center lane for the best part of the season. On the other hand, Contento coming in twice in a row has me befuddled.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby MatZam » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:29 am

I think/hope that when Basti is fully fit again he will take up the single pivot and Lahm will officially revert to right back. Keeping in mind Lahm's propensity to attack he will often find himself in midfield, we could even end up with a pre-game formation of Lahm at right back but a de facto double pivot of Basti and Lahm during the game, with Alaba pushing up from the left and only Dante and Boateng as true defenders, although with Basti and Lahm in front of them one wouldn't expect them to come under too much flak.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby runaway » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:49 am

Martinez would contend for the CB spot where we lack depth. Too many players battling in midfield but in defense, Dante and Boateng doesn't have competition. He doesn't fit the single pivot. But, seeing him leave would be hard, after the hardships we went through to get him and the impact he gave us when he came.
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