FC Bayern Forum

[Firefox1234]

Despite what has been said I still feel like the system is the problem. We got cut to pieces against Chelsea, and they could have scored more. Our defense seems unsure of themselves and we are making mistakes left and right. Systems can cause players to make mistakes. When you are protected by 2 dm's as a defender it's always gonna be much easier. I will give it time because I do believe we can master this system and make it work. I don't think it will be as strong defensively but I hope I'm wrong.

However, I firmly feel the 4-2-3-1 is better defensively. We may have less possession with the 4-2-3-1 but who cares? We played strong, fast, and had the best partnership of holding mid's in the world last year. Our system made DvB look like a stud. We slapped around barca 7-0 over 2 legs. Why are we making these changes again

First of all i understand your concerns, last year Bayern looked godly and all was right in the universe with the 4-2-3-1 but you have to realize Pep isnt Jupp. He cant coach something he doesnt know, the only one who knows Jupp's system is Jupp. Look what happened to Barca, Tito thought he could play like Pep but Tito's Barca was nothing like Pep's Barca. Pep can only coach the way he knows and so far the players have had nothing bad to say about the changes. Even recently Kroos said "stagnation is regression" realizing Bayern has to keep evolving to stay ahead of the curve. Their is clear evidence that the goals Bayern has conceded are individual errors and the lack of finishing is also thanks to individual errors. Pretty much everything that needs to he fixed is players need to be more disciplined defensively since their arent two DMs shielding the CBs and our attacking players need to put away their chances so games like games like vs Freiburg and Chelsea arent being drawn out till the end . At the moment Bayern have drawn one competitive fixture so its hard to completely dismiss Pep's ideas since he is producing results.

[Badger]

Thanks for the responses, SchwanMunich and Firefox. Let me try to add to them…

“Cut to pieces by Chelsea...”
I believe that many fans – not necessarily including yourself – overreact in a live game to the opponents getting into the final third of the field, almost as if the opponents were likely to score 80-90% of the time they get into that final third of the field, and almost as if the Bayern defence had no control or cover for these attacks. In connection with some things that I wrote in previous posts, I watched the first half of the Chelsea game again. Although Mourinho may have claimed that Chelsea were the better team in that half, the truth is that, apart from that world class goal from Torres, there wasn’t much else to worry about. Bayern defenders generally outnumbered attackers, they delayed and took the sting out of many fast counterattacks, and they were well placed to cover most long shots. Although Chelsea got into that final third, they still needed to conjure up a lot more brilliance than they did, if they were to actually outplay the Bayern defenders and score past Neuer. (I’ll provide a full listing in a day or two, and add details on the second half and extra time as well.)

“Systems can cause players to make mistakes...”
This, I think, is implying that pressure will cause players to make mistakes in situations where mistakes are unnecessary (ie although they are not outnumbered or badly positioned). Guardiola’s 4-1-4-1 possession football should create a game where there is a lot of attacks and pressure at the opponents end and fewer attacks at the Bayern end. If we’re agreed that pressure causes defenders to make mistakes, then it is interesting to apply that theory to the opponents end. The wave after wave of varied attacks which the opponents’ defence must face is real pressure, and there it can indeed overstretch the defenders’ concentration. But at the Bayern end things should be manageable – both in terms of pressure and types of attacks – for top-level defenders. There are fewer attacks in total, Guardiola has provided many tactical details for pressing, delaying counters, positioning and interception, regrouping from midfield, etc, so that virtually everything can be contained except rare world class attacks (ie fast counterattacks in superior numbers with superb finishing). Ideally, in a few months the main question we’ll be asking will be “Why are the few goals scored against us always world class goals?” and the answer will be “Because those are the only goals that can beat the Bayern defence.”

“4-2-3-1 is better defensively than 4-1-4-1...”
I have never disputed this, and believe it myself. But that is not the whole story. The other questions Guardiola seems to have asked himself and answered with “Yes” are:
- Can 4-1-4-1 produce an adequate defence?
- Is the second defensive midfielder being wasted there if we have high possession rates?
- Is the overall benefit of an extra attacking midfielder sufficient to compensate for the slight drop in defensive solidarity?

“Why are we making these changes?”
I hear various answers to this. Some point out that nearly every manager changes things a bit, and is entitled to do so. I don’t disagree with that. Some point out that Bayern need to change, so that other teams don’t work out how to beat their old tactics. I don’t disagree with that either. But I think that the main reason is that Guardiola is a brilliant tactician, and he believes that his system will work better and bring better results in the long run.

There are a couple of asides I’d like to add at this stage too. Firstly, Heynckes has played 4-1-4-1 already – many times. In games where Bayern had a lot of possession, Schweinsteiger or Martinez would move forward from the deeper midfield roles and join Kroos as a second central attacking midfielder. The foundation was laid. Guardiola is simply playing it with a bit more emphasis. Secondly, I am not necessarily promoting 4-1-4-1. I’m merely fascinated by it, and I think that it could become the most dominant and most effective formation in modern football, but I too am still awaiting more conclusive results.

[Firefox1234]

There are a couple of asides I’d like to add at this stage too. Firstly, Heynckes has played 4-1-4-1 already – many times. In games where Bayern had a lot of possession, Schweinsteiger or Martinez would move forward from the deeper midfield roles and join Kroos as a second central attacking midfielder. The foundation was laid. Guardiola is simply playing it with a bit more emphasis. Secondly, I am not necessarily promoting 4-1-4-1. I’m merely fascinated by it, and I think that it could become the most dominant and most effective formation in modern football, but I too am still awaiting more conclusive results.

Heynckes played many formations during games such as the late game killer 4-6-0 which pretty much choked the life out of the opponents midfield. Also i also am very fascinated about the 4-1-4-1, i feel like with the lack of DMs and true box to box CMs and a huge influx of AMs and wingers many teams will have to find a way around that. In my future of football i see attacking football being the best defense.

[Chalant]

If you say Heynckes played 4-1-4-1 on the attack then you can also say Pep plays our favourite 4-2-3-1 on the defense. The formations are not the same, and the approach of each formation is very different, even if the structure is not so different.


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[runaway]

4231 has been a very popular formation, especially in Germany, for many teams. And it's the right time for us to try and move forward. To find another way to be successful. This is what Guardiola did at Barca, he changed and used a system nobody else uses or mastered yet. For us to reign in Europe for a long time, and daresay the world, I think finding a way to play differently will hold the key. Moreover, having a certain play gives identity and recall to the football community. Like Barca's tiki-taka, Juve's 352, Chelsea parking the bus, etc.

Hardships is part of success and it makes it sweeter. Like in that toddler's marshmallow test, sometimes we have to forgo instant gratification of eating that one marshmallow and endure the temptation to get two marshmallows.

[Badger]

I found the following in TZ Online. I couldn't locate the original Kicker interview it quotes, but here is the TZ Online version, together with a rough translation. It certainly reads like a strong endorsement of 4-1-4-1 and Guardiola's tactics from Sammer.

http://www.tz-online.de/sport/fc-bayern/matthias-sammer-sieht-guardiola-ungerecht-behandelt-3094652.html

Spoiler: show

Sammer sieht Pep ungerecht behandelt

München - Bayerns Sportvorstand Matthias Sammer sieht Pep Guardiola nach der Triple-Saison teilweise ungerecht behandelt. In der vergangenen Spielzeit sei auch nicht alles perfekt gewesen.

Nach der erfolgreichsten Saison in der Geschichte des FC Bayern München hat Pep Guardiola ein schweres Erbe von Jupp Heynckes angetreten. Mit dem Gewinn des Supercup-Finals gegen den FC Chelsea ist erstmal etwas Ruhe um den Spanier eingekehrt. Sein neues System mit nur einem Sechser funktioniert zwar immer noch nicht zu einhundert Prozent, aber mit dem Erfolg in Prag wurde der nächste Schritt gemacht.

Das sieht auch Bayerns Sportvorstand Matthias Sammer so. Sein neuer Trainer werde teilweise ungerecht behandelt, vor allem das neue System wird aus seiner Sicht zu oft kritisiert. Viele Außenstehende würden zu sehr an der Vergangenheit hängen, glaubt Sammer: "Ich finde manche Äußerungen gegenüber Pep nicht korrekt, denn wenn man letzte Saison im Detail analysiert, dann ist es eine Verklärung der Vergangenheit, wenn man sagt, dass alles perfekt gewesen sei", äußerte sich Sammer gegenüber dem "kicker".

Er mahnt die Systemkritiker vor zu schnellen Urteilen: "Man wirft Guardiola vor, dass es letzte Saison das richtige war, wie wir von der Art und Weise her gespielt haben, dass da vor allem Stabilität vorhanden war. Nur zur Erinnerung: Im Champions-League-Finale waren wir nach 25 Minuten normalerweise schon weg und im Pokalendspiel haben wir gegen Stuttgart auch gezittert. Stabilität habe ich in beiden Finals nicht erkannt. Wir haben beide Spiele nicht toll und souverän gewonnen. Das ist also keine Frage des Systems."

Für Sammer ist Guardiola der nächste Schritt im Zuge einer Entwicklung beim FC Bayern. Fortschritte sieht er vor allem in der Offensive. Das erarbeiten von Torchancen hat sich unter dem Spanier extrem verbessert, in den ersten vier Saisonspielen waren es 38. So viele wie in den letzten zehn Jahren nicht mehr zum Bundesliga-Start.

Einzig die Chancenauswertung stimmt noch nicht, daran muss aus Bayern-Sicht gearbeitet werden. Sollte die Ausgeglichenheit zwischen Defensive und Offensive weiter verbessert werden, wird sich zwangsläufig der Erfolg einstellen, da ist sich Matthias Sammer sicher: "Die Mannschaft ist hungrig auf Entwicklung und der Trainer wird sagen, wo wir hinmarschieren müssen."

Wenn die Enwicklung erfolgreich verläuft, könnte die Mannschaft also auch zur Triple-Verteidigung marschieren. Das Entscheidende wird dabei sein, dass Pep Guardiola genügend Zeit bekommt. Und Ruhe.

Sammer Regards Pep as Unfairly Treated

Munich - Bayern's director of sport, Matthias Sammer, regards Pep Guardiola as having been partly unfairly treated since the Treble season. In the previous period (ie last season) too, not everything was perfect.

After the most successful season in the history of FC Bayern Munich, Pep Guardiola inherited a difficult undertaking from Jupp Heynckes. Only since the victory in the Supercup final against FC Chelsea has peace descended around the Spaniard. His new system with only one No6 doesn't, admittedly, function 100% as yet, but with the success in Prague the next step was taken.

That's also how Bayern's director of sport, Matthias Sammer, sees it. His new trainer was, to some extent, unfairly treated - above all, the new system was, in his opinion, criticised too often. Many outsiders still hang on too much to the past, thinks Sammer, "I find many statements about Pep not correct because, if people analyse last season in detail, then it is a embellishment of the past, when people say that everything was perfect," stated Sammer to Kicker.

He warns the critics of the system against hasty judgements, "People tell Guardiola that last season was the right one, in the way we played, so that, above all, stability existed. Let's remember, in the Champions League final we would have normally been out of it after 25 minutes, and in the German Cup final we wobbled against Stuttgart. I didn't see stability in either final. We didn't win either final wonderfully well. That is also unrelated to the system."

For Sammer, Guardiola is the next step in the development of FC Bayern. He see progress in the attack, in particular. The creation of chances has improved immensely under the Spaniard - in the first four games of the season they totalled 38. So many haven't been created at the start of the Bundesliga in the last 10 years.

The conversion of chances is the thing which isn't right yet and, from Bayern's perspective, that must be improved. If the balance between defence and attack can be improved further, success must come; Sammer is certain of that, "The team is hungry for development, and the trainer will say where we must march onwards to."

If the development progresses successfully, the team could march on to the defence of the Treble. The decisive factor will be that Pep Guardiola gets enough time. And peace.

[Badger]

If you say Heynckes played 4-1-4-1 on the attack then you can also say Pep plays our favourite 4-2-3-1 on the defense. The formations are not the same, and the approach of each formation is very different, even if the structure is not so different.

I agree entirely. Formations morph into each other a lot. 4-1-4-1 morphs into 4-2-3-1, and vice versa, and into many others. And, yes, starting with 4-1-4-1 which morphs into 4-2-3-1 is not the same as starting with 4-2-3-1 which morphs into 4-1-4-1. A different emphasis and a few other essesntials are needed to make each work. But one is a foundation for the other, and moving from one last season to the other this season is a moderate step rather than a revolutionary leap.

[Firefox1234]

I dont know if anyone here watches the highlights of Bayern Munich II or is following their progress this season but the way they those kids have adapted to the 4-1-4-1 is astonishing. I understand the level of football being played is on the a totally different level especially since its only the 4th tier but i remember a year ago those same batch of kids were struggling against the opponents you see them thrashing right now. You may look at their defensive record and think that Ten Hag must have a deeper defensive line or the quality of teams is just that bad but i think you would be mistaken. If you watch the highlights(which btw is posted in every match thread)you will notice that when Bayern II are scored on or when their opponents creating attacking chances its the same way teams have been scoring on the senior side. Usually a defender has been caught sleeping or its on a counter but the major difference between the way the senior team and the reserve team is finishing. Bayern II's players have a high conversion rate which you can tell from their 30+ GD with only 11 games played while the senior side has struggled finishing. The way the reserve side has been playing the 4-1-4-1 is most likely the way Bayern should be playing it.I know i am going to sound like a broken record but finishing of opponents so late goals don't matter and taking the fight out of the opposition when they see they are 2, 3 or 4 goals downs would completely mask any defensive short coming Bayern may encounter. Even if we were still playing in Jupp's more defensive system, if the quality of finishing we have seen this year stayed the same Bayern would never have won the treble. I think the close games and draw vs Freiburg is just as much the offenses fault as it is the defenses fault. Just ask yourself would we really be aggravated at Dante's blunders if Bayern were already 3 or 4 goals up?

[AdepT]

Just ask yourself would we really be aggravated at Dante's blunders if Bayern were already 3 or 4 goals up?

Explain that to Neuer. I bet he'd eat you alive unless, of course, he's himself at fault.

I really like it when he's all frustrated and pissed whenever we concede a goal.

[Badger]

In some earlier posts, I mentioned that I planned to do an analysis of the occasions when Chelsea were in Bayern’s third of pitch, in order to see a little more clearly whether the 4-1-4-1 formation was at fault. Here, then, are the raw details, followed by my conclusions.

First Half:
05.10 Chelsea attack after ball spills favourably. Long off-target shot from Hazard. Plenty of defenders and well covered.
07.40 Chelsea goal scored by Torres.
13.40 Chelsea attack but Schurrle’s cross is blocked by Alaba for corner. Well covered.
13.?? Chelsea corner. Collected easily by Neuer.
16.30 Four Chelsea attackers on the break against three Bayern defenders. Torres shoots harmlessly over the bar from beyond the defenders.
24.40 Chelsea break. Delayed by Alaba to give Bayern defence time to regroup.
30.30 Chelsea break. Torres shoots over the bar. Plenty of defenders and well covered.
39.10 Chelsea break. Equal numbers of attackers and defenders, and comfortably defended for a corner.
39.?? Chelsea corner. Cleared comfortably by Alaba.

Second Half:
45.30 Chelsea build-up. Plenty of defenders and comfortably defended.
46.30 Bad pass from Lahm leads to Chelsea counterattack. Plenty of defenders and comfortably defended.
50.40 Slow Chelsea build-up. Plenty of defenders and comfortably contained.
59.30 Overhit Chelsea through ball, in behind Bayern defence, goes out for goal kick. A more accurate pass would almost certainly have been covered.
61.30 Chelsea free kick. Schurrle gets ball, rounds Alaba and crosses to Torres in the box. Plenty of defenders but Boateng loses sight of Torres, while Lahm is caught covering two positions. Ball goes well beyond Torres where Lahm heads inaccurately to Neuer who is unable to prevent it becoming a corner. All unnecessarily poor defending.
62.00 Chelsea corner. Overhit.
63.00 Dante slips just outside box, giving Chelsea a great scoring chance. First shot is saved superbly by Neuer and follow-up goes over the bar.
77.00 Slow Chelsea build-up. Plenty of defenders and easily contained.
77.30 Slow Chelsea build-up. Plenty of defenders and cross blocked conceding a corner.
77.45 Chelsea corner. Flicked on for Ivanovic who heads onto crossbar.
78.15 Chelsea build-up. Offside. Shurrle through and receives pass which Neuer saves, but clearly offside to begin with. Dante and Neuer would probably have contained any onside scenario.
83.50 Chelsea free kick. Comes through to Luiz whose shot is saved by Neuer.
90.15 Chelsea free kick. Played straight into wall.

Extra Time:
91.50 Slow Chelsea build-up. Plenty of defenders and, after somewhat longer than necessary, contained.
92.30 Chelsea goal scored by Hazard.
94.00 Chelsea break. Equal number of defenders and pass well cut out.
100.25 Two Chelsea attackers make quick break against four defenders. Well contained and defended.
110.30 Chelsea break. Plenty of defenders and comfortably defended.

The conclusions I would draw from this game are that, apart from the goals themselves (analysed in an earlier post), the best Chelsea chances/near misses came from a Dante slip and two set pieces, at 63.00, 77.45 and 83.50 respectively. This is regular stuff for leading defenders and should have been handled better. In each case, of course, it had nothing to do with a 4-1-4-1 formation, and isn’t really relevant to formations at all. The other potentially dangerous incidents worth consideration were those at 16.30, 61.30 and, perhaps, 94.00. Here, the defence was stretched, but the first and third incidents indicate that even with four attackers against three defenders, or three attackers against three defenders, the attackers still have a lot of good work to do to get a goal out of it, and the second incident, while a positional error, merely indicates that defenders’ individual play can be more of a concern than any formation.

One other little point, that I first noticed in this game – particularly from the 100.25 incident – is that a park-the-bus/counterattacking team probably won’t often have enough attackers in place to create a counterattack where they outnumber the three defenders.

4-1-4-1 is not without its weaknesses, but those weakness are playing a miniscule role, and that is how it will be. Bayern have now played against two of the most notable counterattacking teams in Europe – Dortmund and Chelsea – without those teams demonstrating that 4-1-4-1 is a defensive liability at the top level. The Dortmund game came a little too soon, and was lost rather unfortunately and unnecessarily, in a manner that isn’t that likely to happen again. The Chelsea game, while far from perfect, demonstrated that a good counterattacking team can be contained by a 4-1-4-1 defence, and that the attackers have a lot of work to do to beat it, unless they are given some gift of a chance. Chelsea were pinned back for long periods, their slow build up was comfortably contained, and their faster counters were generally well covered and defended. Bayern may continue to concede goals from set pieces, and individual errors, but that is almost always unrelated to the formation. 4-1-4-1 will leak only an occasional goal – usually top class goal, in some form of fast counterattack, where attackers outnumber defenders, and there’s a well-worked finish.

I am becoming more convinced that Guardiola knows that 4-1-4-1 has minor weakness, and is happy to live with it; the attacking and domination advantages justify it. If there’s enough possession, chances created and reasonably good finishing, Bayern will dominate most games and win them. If there’s enough pressing, regrouping in defence, good positioning and delaying of attacks, Bayern will comfortably contain all but the very best attacks, and even when the opponents do get a shot, they still have Neuer to beat. The opposition will be getting very few chances and only scoring a small percentage of them. I’d venture to predict that, if Bayern play 4-1-4-1, and can avoid conceding silly set-piece goals and individual lapses, they will come close to last year’s Bundesliga record for fewest goals conceded.

Thanks again for reading my posts. All responses and counterpoints welcome.

[AdepT]

Excellent stuff Badger.

The formation is not at fault. It might have contributed to our defensive frailties but it's more down to the use of personnel in the back 6.
The formation with the high defensive line that it utilises demands a very quick player either one of CBs or the CDM. Someone who can track and match, if not better, the pace of the opponent's attackers. Especially against teams who base their play around 'pace in attack'. Also against a very offensive team, the lone CDM needs to be a player on the 'defensive side'. Basti works there all fine but against RM/BVB/Chelsea, it'd be better to go with Javi in that role with Basti pushed up the field. Thiago also won't work against pacey teams because he too is a Basti-esque player. Inclined more towards the attacking side of the play who try to keep a balanced approach. Also, he is yet to acclimatise to the physicality and pace of the league. And if you're playing as DM you've got make tackles which he hardly does. If the balance between the attacking and defensive plays of the DM goes wrong once or twice, then we'd be hit on counter and I am of the opinion that this balance shouldn't go wrong much if it's a 'defensive-minded' player as lone DM which is what Javi is. But that pushes Basti up the field and someone off the field.
And it's a very big decision which has been affected with the presence of brilliant no 8/10s, and the lack of a third proper CB who can be trusted in big matches. With all due respect, DvB/Kirchoff aren't that attractive an option against quality CL teams. DvB is 35 and Jan has still to hold his ground and gain experience. So, the need of another CB and the trials of Javi there as he's played that role before.
This is not to condemn it but all these changes were triggered when we bought Thiago. He has potential and is one for the future and I'm happy he's here but he is one CM too much in the current squad to give a 'respectable playing time' to everyone. Pep probably jumped at the opportunity to sign him this year itself when this transfer, if feasible, should've been made next year.

Nobody's yet sure where Javi will end up playing because he's hardly played any games. When both Basti and Javi are fit, that is when I would like to know what Pep has in mind.

PS : Here's a complete out of the blue Pep-mind guess. I think what Pep needed was a technically good CB and he might have thought of converting Javi into one and brought in another CM to compensate Javi's switch to defense as signing a CB wouldn't have been easy and good because we have two good CBs playing and another young just joined us and there's Bads who's expected next April/May. And so we decided to hang to DvB rather than buying someone. Also Robbery are aging. It's just one of the weird ideas I thought up to explain Thiago's transfer to myself.

[Badger]

^^ Great post, AdepT. I agree with a lot of it.

“but it's more down to the use of personnel in the back 6.”
You discuss this more in the context of players’ positions, but I’d also add that Guardiola has faced many games without any sort of an optimal defence. Neuer missed the Dortmund game, Martinez missed several games, Schweinsteiger missed the Chelsea game, and Rafinha was drafted in for several games. This hasn’t helped the defence to develop, but we can hope that that will soon be a thing of the past.

“Basti pushed up the field”
Further down I mention what I think Guardiola will do with Schweinsteiger, but my own view is that I’d still like to see him as the shuttle player, playing as second central midfielder, and dropping back beside the defensive midfielder when required, (leaving the other central midfielder to play more as the playmaker).

“Jan has still to hold his ground and gain experience”
Many claim that Kirchhoff is not ready to play as defensive midfielder (or even as central defender), but I can’t be quite convinced about that. Kirchhoff has had excellent performances in that defensive midfielder role so far, albeit against lightweight opposition, and he played there for Mainz quite a lot. One of the things I look forward to most is Kirchhoff getting a start, or a good long substitute’s appearance, in a competitive match in that position. I don’t think he’ll disappoint.

“When both Basti and Javi are fit, that is when I would like to know what Pep has in mind.”
I am also interested in the outcome of Schweinsteiger v Martinez in defensive midfield. I don’t at all think that Guardiola has abandoned the idea of Martinez in central defence, but the current injury crisis has forced him to shelve some of those plans. I think it sits around 60-40 in Schweinsteiger’s favour to play the lone defensive midfielder role, with Martinez playing in behind him – not unlike their relative positions last season.

“all these changes were triggered when we bought Thiago”
I don’t quite see the Alcantara problem as you do. I saw the purchase as unexpected transfer opportunity/suitable playing style/strength in depth. He needs more time, but I think that the current injury crisis confirms that we need all the depth we have.

[SchwanMunich]

First, I have to say that this thread has been awesome. I still do think formations can cause players to play much better or worse, as I myself have experienced this. You cant say that formations don't make people better or worse, we see this all the time with players playing well with clubs and then performing bad with their respective NT.

Chelsea looked more dangerous than we did for long periods of time. We got really dangerous in the end when they were tired with 10 men. I am not trying to be doom and gloom, in all honesty I am always behind the team regardless of who's in charge and what formation we play. But I am a realist, and I never felt comfortable when they got the ball. I do realize we need time to properly gel with this system. It has massive potential and I am excited to see how we do this year. However, I felt like we were so tactically brilliant last year, we won the treble, we had the right players, and now we decide to make big changes.....?

Still, Jup couldn't stay forever, and we needed to bring in someone who has had a proven track record of major success. When I think about it, is there anyone better than Pep right now?

These are just growing pains and I hope they go away soon. Having Lahm as the 6 didn't help either, and we did look better with Javi although we were up a man.

One thing, I do feel with this high press and only one DM we need faster center backs or ones who consistently win the 1st challenge. Because if you are slow or get beat when a team counters.....

[AdepT]

@Badger : I’d also add that Guardiola has faced many games without any sort of an optimal defence.
Yup. That is why I even mentioned earlier in a post that I'd rather wait to see minimum of 10-12 games until at least the back 6 is fit.

Schweinsteiger, but my own view is that I’d still like to see him as the shuttle player
I hope Pep sees this because in the current team no one's better. I like the term you coined/use. And there are only few who could fill in the role today. Schweini/Alonso/Vidal and maybe Busquets are the ones who could be a shuttle player. I see it as a nice term for box-to-box CM.

Kirchhoff has had excellent performances in that defensive midfielder role so far,
There's no denying that he's shown composure when given a chance to play. Plus he's a CB converted DM. He's one to watch for sure for the no.6 role. He's got pace and that height. My reservations were with the experience he needs to gain. Obviously, he can be put forth in a dire situation when others are injured but playing for Bayern and especially against world class opposition for a complete game, experience serves as an important enhancer of the player's abilities. My concerns lie there.

“all these changes were triggered when we bought Thiago”
I don’t quite see the Alcantara problem as you do. I saw the purchase as unexpected transfer opportunity/suitable playing style/strength in depth. He needs more time, but I think that the current injury crisis confirms that we need all the depth we have.
Three things :-
1. If not for the injury crisis we have now, you'd see what I am talking about.
2. This is probably his first season with a 'proper responsibility', so obviously he needs time and we are ready to give him that. Probably as a 8/10 but maybe not a 6.
3. The timing of the purchase is what I mentioned arose almost out of blue and Pep jumped on it. If it hadn't may be we wouldn't have pushed through for it. It'd have been a better transfer if this opportunity arose next year.

[MoFattal]

Damn, the comments in this thread has become so long, albeit such views are nice to read.