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2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:42 pm

Badger wrote:

Thanks for posting this.

I would like to state, fairly mildly, that it wasn't written as a statement of how Pep can improve Bayern. I am convinced that Pep is well aware of all the tactical aspects mentioned in the article - many of them came from observing Bayern and what he seems to be trying out - and I generally try to steer away from all posts and posters who write as if they know better than the most successful manager of the last decade.

Elsewhere, I see posts to the effect that Pep needs more time. I'm not even sure that I agree with that. It may be true, in an inaccurate sort of a way.More accurately, it is Pep's players who need more time; he knows more or less what he wants, but the players haven't quite mastered it yet.

No offence intended. I just wanted to clarify my stance.

I noticed it was by you and i would appreciate it if you could post some more interesting articles whenever you get the chance. I especially agree with the bolded statement, it became clear to me in the Frankfurt game that it was really the players who havent gotten used to the system. The lack if finishing clear cut chances and some of the defensive blunders was mainly due to individual errors. Im sure the midweek international friendlies didnt make things any easier but i expect better performances. My own issue with Pep is if he is fielding the right players aka. Schweinstiger as a DM or Martinez as a CB. But that comes down to a difference in philosophy between Pep and I than thinking me saying it wont work cause so far Pep has shown he can make it work...
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Chalant » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:14 pm

We might be starting to trust Pep, but I can easily see someone like BvB or Real Madrid tearing through our 2-man defense on the counter. Many times against Nurnberg, Daniel Ginzek was against 2 people. Put a good striker with pace and skills there and we would be down by a goal. Also the support the striker will have will be greater, Ginzek was very alone there. This wont be the case when we face the top teams.

Winning UCL is out of the question this season. Maybe next year, when our players are used to this.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby MoFattal » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:37 pm

Chalant wrote:Daniel Ginzek was against 2 people. Put a good striker with pace and skills there


To be quite fair, Daniel Ginzek is really a very good player.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Chalant » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:50 pm

MoFattal wrote:To be quite fair, Daniel Ginzek is really a very good player.


He is good, but the strikers we will face in UCL will be better. And that was my point.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:47 pm

After looking back at some of Bayern's games ive noticed a flaw in the way Pep has played the 4-1-4-1. Ive always understood that in that type of formation you should play two #8s in between the wide players so they can aide both offensively and defensively. But when i see pairing like Kroos/Muller, Kroos/Gotze or Thiago/Gotze, Thiago/Muller that looks way to unbalanced. Kroos and Thiago seems like the perfect relationship since both are pretty much #8s by trade and wouldnt find it hard tracking back and pushing forward when necessary. But when Pep plays Muller or Gotze in centrally in a 4-1-4-1 it starts creating an imbalance in the formation. Now either Thiago or Kroos are forced to shoulder the extra burden of tracking or sitting deep since Muller/Gotze are naturally attacking players who dont necessarily worry about tracking back on counters especially. Im not saying Muller or Gotze have poor work ethic or dont track back but both are attacking players that are great either wide or behind a striker so their first instinct is always to push the ball forward but in a 4-1-4-1 my understanding is that their is no AM role where the central player aides a striker but only a CM role that controls tempo and aides offensively as much as defensively. I feel like big teams can easily exploit that imbalance and Thiago's recent injury could prove more detrimental than the media and some of us originally thought.

The best solution i see until Thiago comes back would be to play Schweinstiger and Kroos as the central players and play Kirchhoff or Martinez as the lone DM. I know the likes of Muller and Gotze would be forced to ride the bench and thats probably the main reason Pep has been hesitant to play Schweinstiger further up but i think this would be the best way to address the imbalance ive watched in Bayern's game. Maybe i am confused and would appreciate if anyone could fill in the gaps of my thinking.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Chalant » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:51 pm

I agree with your points there. Schweinsteiger is better in the 'attacking' no.8 role, and he would provide better defensive cover than other options. Too bad for Muller though, Robben's form means he will have to make do auf der bank.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby runaway » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:55 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:After looking back at some of Bayern's games ive noticed a flaw in the way Pep has played the 4-1-4-1. Ive always understood that in that type of formation you should play two #8s in between the wide players so they can aide both offensively and defensively. But when i see pairing like Kroos/Muller, Kroos/Gotze or Thiago/Gotze, Thiago/Muller that looks way to unbalanced. Kroos and Thiago seems like the perfect relationship since both are pretty much #8s by trade and wouldnt find it hard tracking back and pushing forward when necessary. But when Pep plays Muller or Gotze in centrally in a 4-1-4-1 it starts creating an imbalance in the formation. Now either Thiago or Kroos are forced to shoulder the extra burden of tracking or sitting deep since Muller/Gotze are naturally attacking players who dont necessarily worry about tracking back on counters especially. Im not saying Muller or Gotze have poor work ethic or dont track back but both are attacking players that are great either wide or behind a striker so their first instinct is always to push the ball forward but in a 4-1-4-1 my understanding is that their is no AM role where the central player aides a striker but only a CM role that controls tempo and aides offensively as much as defensively. I feel like big teams can easily exploit that imbalance and Thiago's recent injury could prove more detrimental than the media and some of us originally thought.

The best solution i see until Thiago comes back would be to play Schweinstiger and Kroos as the central players and play Kirchhoff or Martinez as the lone DM. I know the likes of Muller and Gotze would be forced to ride the bench and thats probably the main reason Pep has been hesitant to play Schweinstiger further up but i think this would be the best way to address the imbalance ive watched in Bayern's game. Maybe i am confused and would appreciate if anyone could fill in the gaps of my thinking.


Makes sense. Muller centrally hasn't paid off so far and with Robben's form, he'll have to accept maybe he needs to be sidelined a bit so Bayern can settle the tactic smoothly. Though I don't understand why Gotze isn't tracking back... BVB might have the highest work rates in the world. I mean it's their style of play, and I've seen enough BVB games to know Gotze knows how to put pressure and track back. What is going on? :crazy:
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:04 pm

runaway wrote:Makes sense. Muller centrally hasn't paid off so far and with Robben's form, he'll have to accept maybe he needs to be sidelined a bit so Bayern can settle the tactic smoothly. Though I don't understand why Gotze isn't tracking back... BVB might have the highest work rates in the world. I mean it's their style of play, and I've seen enough BVB games to know Gotze knows how to put pressure and track back. What is going on? :crazy:

Like i said Gotze is an attacking player at heart and if you have ever played the game before on any level the last thing on your mind after having a shot on goal is to track back. I know these guys are professionals but its like a second language to them especially since Gotze is still a young player. Like i said before i dont think a central role in a 4-1-4-1 suits either Muller or Gotze....
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Badger » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:21 am

Firefox1234 wrote:After looking back at some of Bayern's games ive noticed a flaw in the way Pep has played the 4-1-4-1. Ive always understood that in that type of formation you should play two #8s in between the wide players so they can aide both offensively and defensively. But when i see pairing like Kroos/Muller, Kroos/Gotze or Thiago/Gotze, Thiago/Muller that looks way to unbalanced. Kroos and Thiago seems like the perfect relationship since both are pretty much #8s by trade and wouldnt find it hard tracking back and pushing forward when necessary. But when Pep plays Muller or Gotze in centrally in a 4-1-4-1 it starts creating an imbalance in the formation. Now either Thiago or Kroos are forced to shoulder the extra burden of tracking or sitting deep since Muller/Gotze are naturally attacking players who dont necessarily worry about tracking back on counters especially. Im not saying Muller or Gotze have poor work ethic or dont track back but both are attacking players that are great either wide or behind a striker so their first instinct is always to push the ball forward but in a 4-1-4-1 my understanding is that their is no AM role where the central player aides a striker but only a CM role that controls tempo and aides offensively as much as defensively. I feel like big teams can easily exploit that imbalance and Thiago's recent injury could prove more detrimental than the media and some of us originally thought.

The best solution i see until Thiago comes back would be to play Schweinstiger and Kroos as the central players and play Kirchhoff or Martinez as the lone DM. I know the likes of Muller and Gotze would be forced to ride the bench and thats probably the main reason Pep has been hesitant to play Schweinstiger further up but i think this would be the best way to address the imbalance ive watched in Bayern's game. Maybe i am confused and would appreciate if anyone could fill in the gaps of my thinking.


I’ve noticed that and thought about our CMs a few times too, Firefox. I’m wondering whether this is really the players doing their own thing or whether there are some guidelines from Guardiola on the matter. It is difficult to get hold of any real facts on the reasons behind it, so I’m left to speculation once again.

Firstly, the two CMs may not have identical roles. They are both CMs, playing to the left and right of each other, and in possession things are very similar, but one may be regarded as the more offensive and the other the more defensive, so we see the same CM being first to drop back all the time. Moreover, in a game like the one against Nuremberg, where Bayern had 81% possession, it would rarely be necessary for the second CM to drop back.

Secondly, it is not a good idea for all your players, and especially all your playmakers, to be hurtling back too quickly. One playmaker needs to remain available to coordinate or assist with Bayern's counterattacks. Hence, when possession is lost, the first players to drop back are generally the wing backs and one of the CMs. When pressure increases, that is followed by the wingers, the other CM and, finally, the striker.

Thirdly, there needs to be some guidelines – an understanding – between the CMs about who drops back when. Anything less is likely to cause confusion or miss opportunities. The guidelines may be that one CM always drops back first. If so, I call this player the shuttle CM player, because he shuttles between CM role in 4-1-4-1 and the CM role in 4-2-3-1. Or the guidelines may be that the CMs take it in turns to drop back, though preferably not in any pattern that becomes predictable to the opponents.

I agree with your suggestion that Schweinsteiger could play as the shuttle CM player. Kroos is fairly good at it too. Alcantara might make it as well, but it is a bit early to predict. Mueller, Goetze and Shaqiri have dropped back relatively little in the games they’ve played at CM, so it looks as if that shuttle CM role is not for them. They will, however, still need to drop back a lot more when they play in that CM role in bigger games, where Bayern’s possession is strongly challenged by the opponents and both CMs need to drop back a lot - and they will need to be competent and effective at it.

Just my few thoughts…
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:39 pm

Badger wrote:I’ve noticed that and thought about our CMs a few times too, Firefox. I’m wondering whether this is really the players doing their own thing or whether there are some guidelines from Guardiola on the matter. It is difficult to get hold of any real facts on the reasons behind it, so I’m left to speculation once again.

Firstly, the two CMs may not have identical roles. They are both CMs, playing to the left and right of each other, and in possession things are very similar, but one may be regarded as the more offensive and the other the more defensive, so we see the same CM being first to drop back all the time. Moreover, in a game like the one against Nuremberg, where Bayern had 81% possession, it would rarely be necessary for the second CM to drop back.

Secondly, it is not a good idea for all your players, and especially all your playmakers, to be hurtling back too quickly. One playmaker needs to remain available to coordinate or assist with Bayern's counterattacks. Hence, when possession is lost, the first players to drop back are generally the wing backs and one of the CMs. When pressure increases, that is followed by the wingers, the other CM and, finally, the striker.

Thirdly, there needs to be some guidelines – an understanding – between the CMs about who drops back when. Anything less is likely to cause confusion or miss opportunities. The guidelines may be that one CM always drops back first. If so, I call this player the shuttle CM player, because he shuttles between CM role in 4-1-4-1 and the CM role in 4-2-3-1. Or the guidelines may be that the CMs take it in turns to drop back, though preferably not in any pattern that becomes predictable to the opponents.

I agree with your suggestion that Schweinsteiger could play as the shuttle CM player. Kroos is fairly good at it too. Alcantara might make it as well, but it is a bit early to predict. Mueller, Goetze and Shaqiri have dropped back relatively little in the games they’ve played at CM, so it looks as if that shuttle CM role is not for them. They will, however, still need to drop back a lot more when they play in that CM role in bigger games, where Bayern’s possession is strongly challenged by the opponents and both CMs need to drop back a lot - and they will need to be competent and effective at it.

Just my few thoughts…

This is a little off topic but it does my heart good to hear you comment on my post :mrgreen: , now for my response:
Yes, i see what you mean now it doesnt make sense for both CMs to play similar roles are it still creates an unbalance but its good we both realize that players like Muller/Gotze/Shaqiri dont seem suited for this role. Maybe it is too early to judge and they may grow into their new positions as they try to find that balance but at the moment not having Thiago who feels a lot more comfortable their i believe has weakened the team. Im even starting to believe that his transfer may have been more necessary than i originally thought and Pep must have known beforehand he needed a player like Thiago to fill that role. That may even have been the board's major reason for agreeing to Pep's transfer request as they realized it fits his vision.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Badger » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:17 am

Here’s an elaborate question with, I think, an interesting answer.

Bayern’s results in the seven competitive games this season have been as follows:
27.07 Dortmund 4-2 Bayern (German Supercup)
05.08 Rehden 0-5 Bayern (German Cup)
09.08 Bayern 3-1 Gladbach (Bundesliga)
17.08 Frankfurt 0-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
24.08 Bayern 2-0 Nuremburg (Bundesliga)
27.08 Freiburg 1-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
30.08 Chelsea 2-2 Bayern (Supercup)

In total, Bayern have conceded 8 goals in those games (while scoring 16). Of the 8 they have conceded, which ones would you say were clearly, or even largely, a result of Bayern playing in a 4-1-4-1 formation?
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:33 am

Badger wrote:Here’s an elaborate question with, I think, an interesting answer.

Bayern’s results in the seven competitive games this season have been as follows:
27.07 Dortmund 4-2 Bayern (German Supercup)
05.08 Rehden 0-5 Bayern (German Cup)
09.08 Bayern 3-1 Gladbach (Bundesliga)
17.08 Frankfurt 0-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
24.08 Bayern 2-0 Nuremburg (Bundesliga)
27.08 Freiburg 1-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
30.08 Chelsea 2-2 Bayern (Supercup)

In total, Bayern have conceded 8 goals in those games (while scoring 16). Of the 8 they have conceded, which ones would you say were clearly, or even largely, a result of Bayern playing in a 4-1-4-1 formation?


All the goal vs Dortmund and Chelsea
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:50 am

ramsej84 wrote:
Badger wrote:Here’s an elaborate question with, I think, an interesting answer.

Bayern’s results in the seven competitive games this season have been as follows:
27.07 Dortmund 4-2 Bayern (German Supercup)
05.08 Rehden 0-5 Bayern (German Cup)
09.08 Bayern 3-1 Gladbach (Bundesliga)
17.08 Frankfurt 0-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
24.08 Bayern 2-0 Nuremburg (Bundesliga)
27.08 Freiburg 1-1 Bayern (Bundesliga)
30.08 Chelsea 2-2 Bayern (Supercup)

In total, Bayern have conceded 8 goals in those games (while scoring 16). Of the 8 they have conceded, which ones would you say were clearly, or even largely, a result of Bayern playing in a 4-1-4-1 formation?


All the goal vs Dortmund and Chelsea


Playing 4-1-4-1 against Dortmund before our players were used to it was bound to lead to several counterattacks and goals, I agree. But the ones against Chelsea were more down to missing players and individual mistakes than the formation IMO.

Against Frieburg, I blame our finishing not just for the draw but also the goal. With 1-0 Freiburg were motivated. Had we scored more they would have given up and probably never scored.

I can't remember the Gladbach's goal, so I can't comment on that.

If you look at it this way, only half of the goals we let in were a result of the new structure, and those were all in the same game (the first game, too). That is very positive. But while I agree that we have seen an improvement in defending in this formation, it is not as positive as these stats suggest. A more accurate analysis would be comparing the dangerous chances created by our opponents in these 8 games with the ones from last year. Even just by looking at the games from this season I don't think you will find that big of an improvement as you have in these stats.

But putting aside the 4-1-4-1, the individual mistakes are very worrying. Even though I dismissed the Chelsea goals as not being a result of the formation, this problem is probably more pressing and needs to be solved quickly. The goals weren't theonly moments were our defenders made terrible mistakes and the worst part is it wasn't just one player, it was the entire defensive line making one mistake after another.
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:42 pm

VS Borr Monchengladbach it was an own goal by Dante... (the first signs of his future lapses)
Vs Chelsea we were caught twice on the break...
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Re: 2013/2014 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:07 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:A more accurate analysis would be comparing the dangerous chances created by our opponents in these 8 games with the ones from last year. Even just by looking at the games from this season I don't think you will find that big of an improvement as you have in these stats.

But putting aside the 4-1-4-1, the individual mistakes are very worrying. Even though I dismissed the Chelsea goals as not being a result of the formation, this problem is probably more pressing and needs to be solved quickly. The goals weren't theonly moments were our defenders made terrible mistakes and the worst part is it wasn't just one player, it was the entire defensive line making one mistake after another.

These two paragraphs i agree with the most, Bayern may not be conceding because of the new formation but they are looking a lot more fragile. Also I do not think its the pressing game that needs improving but the finishing and the lack of individual errors on defense(Dante #-o ). Imagine of Bayern were able to put away at least half their chances they get in the first half of these games, they could be up by 3 or 4 goals. A scoreline like that would demoralize all the teams they would face and decrease the chances of them getting deadly counters on us.

I think Pep's defense strategy doesnt just rely on playing a high line, holding possession, and high press, it also relies on the offense to beat the fight out of the opponent. By finishing the numerous chances, Pep expects his team to put them away so opponents dont have the time to take advantage of the defensive frailties of this formation. Just like the Freiburg and Chelsea games, Bayern should have scored 4 or 5 goals and those last minute goals the opponents scored wouldnt have been so costly. In other words i think Pep's idea is a good offense can be a good defense.....
ramsej84 wrote:VS Borr Monchengladbach it was an own goal by Dante... (the first signs of his future lapses)
Vs Chelsea we were caught twice on the break...

The second goal was hardly a counter attack, Lahm, Boateng, and even Martinez were poorly positioned letting Hazard just walk in the ball for a goal...
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