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2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Fénix » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Element wrote:Scholl might not have been as important

We missed his knowledge, skills and vision in 04/05 and 05/06, he was rarely in squad, often with doc. M-W. His last match with 36-37 years was great.

Element wrote:But Oliver Kahn was waaaaaaay more influencial and important too ,yet we survived his retirement

He was our alfa and omega, fighter, leader, showman, etc. It's much more easier and quicker to count what he wasn't than what he was presenting. People cried when he left us, he could easily play up to the age of 40.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:03 pm

Element wrote:Real football is played in the center


Generalizing like that can never be a good idea, but in this case it's especially false. Good luck breaking super defensive sides with what you call "Real Football".

Being predictable or unpredictable is not of interest for us when manning the wings. Binding opponents' defensive resources away from the center is.

Aaron Nimzovich, one of the greatest chess players/teachers, once said: "The threat is stronger than its execution." If we threaten their wings they'll have to do something about this threat, no? Let them go ahead and say "LOLZ ROFL, they are coming over the wings, how predictable. All we have to do is manning the wings defensively to double team their wingers and we've neutralized them. HAHA what a bunch of fools."

Well guess what, we've just succeeded in making their center less compact, so we can start thinking about playing "Real Football" through the center.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Element » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:10 pm

Commodore wrote:
Element wrote:Real football is played in the center


Generalizing like that can never be a good idea, but in this case it's especially false. Good luck breaking super defensive sides with what you call "Real Football".

Being predictable or unpredictable is not of interest for us when manning the wings. Binding opponents' defensive resources away from the center is.

Aaron Nimzovich, one of the greatest chess players/teachers, once said: "The threat is stronger than its execution." If we threaten their wings they'll have to do something about this threat, no? Let them go ahead and say "LOLZ ROFL, they are coming over the wings, how predictable. All we have to do is manning the wings defensively to double team their wingers and we've neutralized them. HAHA what a bunch of fools."

Well guess what, we've just succeeded in making their center less compact, so we can start thinking about playing "Real Football" through the center.

And how successful were we with these tactics against defensively tough teams???
Whenever a team -good or bad- plays defense with descipline against us... BAAAAM we lost

We rely on the opponent playing open football more than counter attacking teams e.g.hannover

Wings on FIFA or PES are essential but the more i watch football ,the more i realize that the center is where football is made, wings are only accessory
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Element » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:18 pm

MoFattal wrote:
Element wrote:
MoFattal wrote:Seriously? 4-3-2-1? Shaqiri and Muller can definitely run, but no way in hell they can take an entire CDM-CB-FB back line on their own.

[quote="Element"]Real football is played in the center


Yeah, when you have someone to pass to, not when you're aim is to dribble past at least 5-6 players in a very limited and congested central area just because wing play is predictable nowadays.

You are making it look like the movie 300!! Lmao
Our fullbacks will support
You also have mandzukic
And with gustavo staying in the back ,schweinsteiger and martinez will be able to move forward

So it is basically same thing but with a whole different shape

Shaqiri and mueller against the other players alone LOL
and what are our players doing??


Then you're talking about 4-1-4-1 and not that christmas tree formation. I am actually a fan of the 4-1-4-1, but there is a huge difference between the two, and having Kroos/Martinez and Shweini going forward means that they will be playing on the wings, something that is so "predictable" to do. And, if we were to go along with it and have people on the wings, then I'd prefer Robbery over there anytime or at least those two you placed in the middle ;)[/quote]
You probably watch too much lebanese football??
Central midfielders in european top teams run minimum 10 km per match

You probably think of formations as drawings on paper and the player has to stay there

Why do i need three cdms when i am on attacking position??? i just let schweinsteiger go up a bit

So it is more a 4-3-2-1 to 4-1-2-2-1 switch
Similar to the mourinho tactic he uses sometimes vs barcelona, but unlike madrid,we will be a bit more offensive and play football , not only putting khedira with pepe and ask them to crush opponents


Of course we wont use it anytime soon as we have the best winger duo in the world WHEN HEALTHY

BUT after few years , i would like to see a change to 4-3-2-1
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:19 pm

I think teams need to be more 2 dimensional, instead of attacking one sole are mix things up with a variety of attacks from the wings and through the middle. Sticking to one game plan will eventually result in a failure....
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Element » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:23 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:I think teams need to be more 2 dimensional, instead of attacking one sole are mix things up with a variety of attacks from the wings and through the middle. Sticking to one game plan will eventually result in a failure....

Well of course
But every team needs a main formation,a backbone
And then according to circumstances you may change

Sometimes you see Mandzukic crossing from the wing even though this is not his job nor his position
But it was the best thing to do that moment
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby MoFattal » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:04 am

Element wrote:You probably watch too much lebanese football??


As a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time I've ever watched a game (bar the WC2014 qualifications, of course).

Element wrote:Similar to the mourinho tactic he uses sometimes vs barcelona


Yeah, that's a good benchmark :|

A formation isn't what makes you lose a game. It is how you execute it that does. I agree, having static wingmen for the entire 90 minutes is predictable and frustrating, but that doesn't mean that a formation with attacking wingers is so. We all saw that when we try new stuff like interchanging positions and not cutting up the field, this leads to better results (and praise). So, it is the tactics within the formation that should be tailored, not the formation in itself. We've been basing our gameplay over the past few years to reach the levels of last year (where there is a lot of other things to blame than the formation for the runner-up treble) and the current one too. Our players are being tailored to that philosophy, even the new ones. You can't have Muller (e.g.) develop during his most important years on a certain role, and then change it completely because Robbery are no longer there. Not just because Barcelona was successful playing from the middle then it means this is the best football philosophy. They grew up that way, we grew up this way. A team is built upon its assets, and our main ones are very well-suited for the formation (and its variations) that we have right now.

P.S. I understand your point of view, and I know that I've repeated some of the things which you've already stated. I am only discussing the idea of the "formation" and not "tactics".
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby mahoni » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:35 pm

What is real football?
I remember one of the best Bayern-sides one year ago in the first half of the season (until the Napoli game). The team was so dominating the other sides by using the whole pitch and changing positions all the time (quiet pefectly played against Napoli the 1st half in Munich). The domination was not about playing in the center.
On the other hand I don´t think that there are lots of teams wich can play thrue the center all time (you need the right palyers for that - like Barca have).
There was a british coach (I can´t remember the name) who said: "Football is much more serios than war." I think he ment that you have to penetrate the other side by your own style of football (keeping posetion, changing from side to side ect...) to take the positive spirite of your opponent. And I think it dosen t matter how do you do that. That's real football in my eyes.
I think there are so many different kinds of interpretating a game but there is no best way just a better way than your opponent have (no real or unreal). It is to discuss wich one is more beautiful ... and everybody has his own opinion about that ... just to say, I hate the style Barca is playing - in my eyes it is a "death football" palyed whithout heart just cold cold cold, freezing cold.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:10 pm

Element wrote:And how successful were we with these tactics against defensively tough teams???
Whenever a team -good or bad- plays defense with descipline against us... BAAAAM we lost


What does that even mean? what is a good defensive team without discipline? What is a bad defensive team with disipline? Whatever it means, let's talk about a good defensive team with discipline instead (i.e. the worst case scenario of your examples).

Valencia.

They were just about the most defensively sound, most compact and most disciplined side we have faced so far. We played super patiently and we dominated them thoroughly. I don't want to hear anything about the last five minutes of the game, for they have nothing to do with the tactics we employed.

Element wrote:We rely on the opponent playing open football more than counter attacking teams e.g.hannover


We rely on exactly nothing.
Our opponents are relying on us having a bad day or underestimating them (you may want to check Felix Magath's interview to hear him say exactly that after we routed Wolfsburg).

We rely on us making the pitch BIG when we have the ball, and on making it small when we don't. We will be the superior side in 99% of games we'll play this season (and most likely beyond). If we don't utilize the whole pitch we're throwing away parts of our advantage.

Let's use another analogy: Let's say in an MMA fight you knew you'd be the better kicker, the better puncher and the better wrestler than your opponent. Would it make sense to only use one of these techniques? In fact would it be smart to not only use only one of these techniques but to actually tell your opponent beforehand that you'd do that?

If anything is predictable, which seems to be one of your main concerns, then that's exactly that. Playing only through the center and having no threat whatsoever on the wings so our opponents can form a compact square box defensively because they have to worry not a single bit about the wings.

Element wrote:Wings on FIFA or PES are essential but the more i watch football ,the more i realize that the center is where football is made, wings are only accessory


I don't play either of these games so I can't comment on that, but if you're inferring that (for example) Barca create lots of stuff through the center and therefor the wings aren't necessary, you might want to watch a few more Barca games. They always have someone hugging the touchlines, because that's one of their ground-rules. I mentioned it above already and I believe it's coined by Pep:

Make the pitch BIG when you have the ball, make it small when you don't.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:36 pm

They way i notice Barca use the wings is by attacking the wings so then can cut inside with their quick forwards and midfielder(iniesta) to open up an attack through the center and it started to work there second leg vs Chelsea and if Messi didn't miss that PK the final would have been one hell of a game....
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Element » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:43 am

I got your points and i never said that you are wrong
And i Also never ever want us to play like THIS BARCELONA as their game is boring,referee helps a lot and their diving is idiotic too (want to cheat,at least do it right)

All am saying is that right now we still are same as last year style wise even though we highly improved in many aspects

And about underestimation ,we didnt underestimate chelsea ,Dortmund and inter who all basically did the same against us and got the same positive result

And if BATE can win using the same priniciples (with our underestimation) why Shouldnt bigger clubs use the same idea and win?!
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:46 am

we really dont use "only wings" this season...JH has found a way to play unpredictable football this season.

Last season [or under LVG] we were really predictable...we played possession football with most of our attacks coming through wings. There was really no counter attacking football. It was really frustrating at times.

Now we are more like Germany 2010 if you ask me.

Most of our goals were scored from counter attacks...if I remember right and if during last BL game that commentator was right...from 18 goals we scored 15 on counter attacks [maybe I am wrong but that sounds alot]. We play fast football after we get possession on the ball. We do it through the middle or over the wings...it really doesnt matter. Our passing is much faster than it used to be under LVG. Our CBs...mostly Boateng are passing the ball directly to the offensive players [Kroos, Ribery, Mandzo, Muller etc..]. We dont go from point 1 to point 2 and than to point 3 etc...now we can easily go from point 1 to point 3 in an instant.

That is football for me. It is not boring and it is effective. We have fast thinking players now and JH did a right choice.

When it comes to passing we have best midfielders bar Barcelona...Schweini, Martinez, Kroos, Ribery, Robben, Shaqiri, Muller...they can all pass the ball around....and most of them are really quick so we can do it really fast....that is why this years tactics reminds me of that from Germany in 2010.

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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:39 am

Element wrote:I got your points and i never said that you are wrong
And i Also never ever want us to play like THIS BARCELONA as their game is boring,referee helps a lot and their diving is idiotic too (want to cheat,at least do it right)

All am saying is that right now we still are same as last year style wise even though we highly improved in many aspects

And about underestimation ,we didnt underestimate chelsea ,Dortmund and inter who all basically did the same against us and got the same positive result

And if BATE can win using the same priniciples (with our underestimation) why Shouldnt bigger clubs use the same idea and win?!


Wow. Just wow.

Is "Generalization" your middle name?

If you truly believe Barca are cheating their way to success, well, I guess you'll have to believe that. Whether or not their style is boring is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find it very exciting, but that's beside the point.

We are not playing the same style as last year. I am getting kind of numb saying it over and over again, but formations are not tactics! Our basic shapes that were 4-2-3-1 last year as well as 4-2-3-1 this year are producing styles that are very very different from each other.

Chelsea, Dortmund, Inter and BATE all did the same against us?

Dude, that's just ridiculous, and I hope you know that. I mean I can't even read that sentence without chuckling. :D

Let me generalize a bit as well: In general you are saying that from 2010 on forward everything was shit, and everything is still shit.

Sometimes reading some posts on these forums I wonder how on earth we are crushing everyone convincingly this year. Maybe we're "cheating" as well and the "referees help" us as much as they "help" Barca?
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby tflags » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:41 am

There is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF of Barza being a buch of divers. ABSOLUTELY NONE! I mean, other than Gary Lineker saying one of the first things he was taught at Barza was how to dive but THIS IS IN NO WAY CONCLUSIVE, Y' HEAR! NO WAY!
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:48 am

W8 so your saying that no one in Barca dives often and that it seems like in all the big games the referee's decision tends to go there ways. If Chelsea didnt have natural luck Barca would have won that game when JT got a bullshit red card at 45min from a Barca dive and Messi gets a another PK for good measure :(
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