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2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:12 pm

quaazi wrote:
BayernLove wrote:Perhaps the most sweeping statement that can be made is that a 4-3-3 promotes proactive football while a 4-2-3-1 promotes reactive football. Obviously this is not set in stone, but they do fit those styles better.


Very good post, but with this last part I disagree somewhat (even though you've already put it in perspective). In general I have to say that a formation is just that. A formation. A formation doesn't dictate your style of play.

One example (and it pains me as much as everyone else here to bring that up): The UCL final in May: Both teams lined up in a 4-2-3-1 yet I don't think there's any doubt which one was the proactive side and which one the reactive.

You've mentioned playmakers like Özil, Snejder etc. With players like these the 4-2-3-1 becomes very dynamic and active (just like we were in the final - without one of the aforementioned).

We do have players that can play the #10 in a 4-2-3-1 dynamically, and I think that without Shcweinsteiger's troubles last season Toni Kroos would have by now established himself there even before Müller (who can fill that role as well however, and excellently so).

On top of that the constant switching of positions up front as seen yesterday as well as in the Supercup means that more often than not Robben, Ribéry or even Shaqiri will play on the #10 spot and while we might not have been too impressed with Robben and Ribéry in the most recent past, we do agree that both players are HIGHLY dynamic players. If Shaqiri is half the player he showed yesterday I have little doubts regarding him as well.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:18 pm

One example (and it pains me as much as everyone else here to bring that up): The UCL final in May: Both teams lined up in a 4-2-3-1 yet I don't think there's any doubt which one was the proactive side and which one the reactive.

That's kinda my point though. We faced a very reactive 4-2-3-1, and, well, didn't win. That's my main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 that we do play. We simply have potential to use our assets a lot more effectively. We're kinda forcing a formation that isn't the best choice for us.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:19 pm

MoFattal wrote:4-3-2-1? What are we, Inter Milan?

If you ask me, I would go one crazy step forward and suggest the 4-1-3-2 when playing against teams parking the bus.

EDIT: Of course given that the opposing team doesn't have the counter-attacking ability of BVB. In those cases, 4-3-3 would suit us well both on the defensive and offensive ends.


There was a video on youtube by allasFCB (whose videos I highly recommend btw) that showed Barca basically playing a 1-2-3-4 in attack :D :shock:.

Puyol as the lone CB with two attacking fullbacks, three midfielders and 4 attackers. Whacky stuff that probably only a side like Barca can really pull off, but extremely fun to watch.

Unfortunately he took that particular video down for copyright reasons I believe.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:35 pm

quaazi wrote:
One example (and it pains me as much as everyone else here to bring that up): The UCL final in May: Both teams lined up in a 4-2-3-1 yet I don't think there's any doubt which one was the proactive side and which one the reactive.

That's kinda my point though. We faced a very reactive 4-2-3-1, and, well, didn't win. That's my main gripe with the 4-2-3-1 that we do play. We simply have potential to use our assets a lot more effectively. We're kinda forcing a formation that isn't the best choice for us.

Saying we didn't win doesn't acknowledge how the game played out I think. Would you still argue that a 4-3-3 would have been better had we held out the final 5 minutes without conceding? Do you really think we would have been able to create more and dominate the game more in a 4-3-3?

I don't think anyone of us particularly loves Chelsea, but we have to give credit where credit is due. When it comes to parking the bus they even out-did Inter 2010 this year. First against Barca who looked pretty helpless there for long stretches of the second leg at Nou Camp, and then against us. I don't remember whether Barca lined up in their 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 formation, but they are so total-football-y that it doesn't really matter (and it was for sure not a 4-2-3-1). There is probably no team in the world right now that is more proactive than this Barca.

In the end I liked our game vs park-the-bus-Chelsea better than I liked Barca's. And I also believe we looked quite a bit more dynamic than them. This obviously has many reasons, one of which is that we can look for a player like Gómez up front and cross the ball into the box whereas Barca didn't have a player like that, but the way Barca ran their heads into the Chelsea wall time and time again looked really bad regardless.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:49 pm

I just don't want to excuse that game by saying we actually did well. It's loser talk. We fucked up royally and must take every possible step in ensuring that doesn't happen again. That's why we brought in Sammer, it's why we're trying to make the new German record signing. Our tactics aren't faultless either, so if there is even 0.00001% that the team could've played better in that game with a different formation, I think it should be thought over.

Basically, assume everything we did last season was wrong. :|
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby BayernLove » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:51 pm

Why "assume"?
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:55 pm

Because it is nearly impossible to objectively prove all of it.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:07 pm

We didn't do everything wrong and I don't think it's healthy to assume that even if only for the purpose of not fucking up again. The first and foremost thing we did wrong last year was not having enough depth in our squad. We've done a very good job this year and if we can pull off the Martínez deal I'll be happier with our transfer policy than i have been since the late 90's. Sammer is an awesome dude with football knowledge beyond each and everyone of us, but he was not brought in to change the formation. I have (and have always had) trust in Jupp Heynckes.

I know that we have a higher standard than three 2nd places. That goes without saying, but we should not forget games like the ones vs Real, or the first part of the Bundesliga season up until that fateful collarbone injury vs Napoli. And here our lacking depth comes into play again. That doesn't happen to Schweinsteiger in November and we're "Deutscher Meister" and we'll absolutely DOMINATE the competition and we'll win the league by a mile (and then some).

I came into this thread wanting to suggest a 4-3-3 and now I'm arguing FOR the 4-2-3-1 :D. At least I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame on the formation we played last year, and will mostly play this year. Trust me, even if we play 4-2-3-1 for each and every match this year, you'll see a new and improved Bayern like you haven't seen in a LOOONG time.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby MoFattal » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:54 pm

My major objection for 4-2-3-1 is that it becomes detrimental when you have a misfiring "1" upfront. And that is what happened during the games that matter. Suddenly, the formation which led to us tearing teams apart on a regular basis, turned into our biggest enemy. Sticking to it would only lead up to crowded areas, and hence reducing the spaces infront of our creative players. Boom, we start backpassing and Neuer will end up being the player with the most passes. A 4-3-3 would keep that are behind the striker open for players to drift in and out, causing confusion and drawing opponents out of their boxes, which would lead to a wide variety of options. Basically, I just hate that formation for damaging our most promising season :evil:

Let's just see if their are any improvements in the next few weeks.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:16 pm

i have always thought Bayern are missing a piece in the 4-2-3-1 they play and that is either a Yaya Toure type of player or a Silva type of player both are instrumental in makinthe system more dynamic and less predictable because if u watch Man C play they are able to hit he middle thx to the forward runs of Yaya and great passing by Silva and also utilize there wingers but most of the time they will go down the middle.....Bayern need that type of player
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:37 pm

Well yes, like I said, we do have players like that. However we did not have enough to compensate the loss of one. Schweinsteiger at 100% is no worse than Touré, and like I said, I'm sure if we could have had Kroos play #10 the whole year as opposed to having to have him step in for the injured Schweinsteiger on #6 he'd be one of the top #10's in the world by now.

It was not the formation per sé that lost us three titles last year.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:48 pm

Of course it wasn't, but what I was getting at is that is something can improve our team by the most minuscule possible percentage, it should be looked at.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:53 pm

We're on the same page there.

Hence me coming into this thread with the intention in mind to advocate a 4-3-3 :D.
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Commodore wrote:On top of that the constant switching of positions up front as seen yesterday as well as in the Supercup means that more often than not Robben, Ribéry or even Shaqiri will play on the #10 spot

This is key. Whenever our players have done this we have played very well and usually won. For some reason, they don't do it often...

I do not think the 4-2-3-1 itself is a problem. We have the right players to play a duo in midfield and we have the perfect man to play as a sole striker. The problem imo is lack of alternatives. Like MoFattal said when Gomez is misfiring the whole formation fails. Having Mandzukic and Pizarro as alternatives to replace Gomez is very good, but we should also considering changing to the 4-3-3 or a two striker formation when this happens.

Btw Commodore, I am really liking your posts in this topic. Keep it up! =D>
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Re: 2012/2013 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Commodore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:58 pm

Thanks :).

However this:

FCBayernMunchen wrote:This is key. Whenever our players have done this we have played very well and usually won. For some reason, they don't do it often...


Is wrong. The last sentence should be: "For some reason, they didn't do it often."

I'm fairly certain, after seeing the first two games, that this is one of the (if not the) major adjustments Jupp Heynckes will be making to our tactics this coming season. All the while not changing our base formation of 4-2-3-1.

Like I said Formation is not equal to Tactics.
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