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2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:53 pm

Element wrote:Van Gaal Did that one here !!!


I do not remember that =/
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:39 pm

In LVG's first games we realized that his 4-4-2 diamond didn't work, so we bought Robben and changed to 4-3-3 and then to 4-4-2 with two strikers.

Now after last season I think that we all agree in one thing. This 4-2-3-1 DOESN'T WORK with our current players. I guess the main reason of this not working is that we lack a real creative #10. So let's try a new formation which could fit better with our players. We need a change because we are being way too predictable. Look at our pre season games. It was really hard for us to score even playing against Eintracht Braunschweig or Carl Zeiss Jena. Robbery+Müller is being very predictable and also Gomez isn't scoring

Germany plays great with 4-2-3-1 because they have ÖZIL (so does Madrid)
Dortmund plays great with 4-2-3-1 because they have Kagawa.

---------------------
One thing I like from Dortmund is that all their players help in defense. Even if they are leading 4-0 in the 85th minute you can find Grosskreutz in his own box stealing the ball or Götze helping in defense. All their players immediately try to recover the ball posesion one second after losing the ball. They attack and defend as a solid block. That doesn't happen with us
---------------------

So which are your suggestions? I think that 4-4-2 diamond would fail in the same way that our current 4-2-3-1. We don't have a #10. Maybe Ribery could play there, but I don't think we are going to see him playing there.

My suggestion trying to be realistic is this 4-3-3

Playing against lower teams that park the bus @ Allianz

Ribery----Müller----Robben
Gustavo--Schweini---Kroos

Playing away agames

Ribery---Müller----Robben
Gustavo--Schweini--Tymo


As we don't have a real striker, the players should be changing positions and appearing everywhere. Sometimes Müller in the center. Sometimes Robben. Sometimes Robben goes to the left with Ribery. Sometimes Kroos appears.

More shooting from outside the box. We have great players with great shooting skills.

Olic as first replacement for Robbery

I know that Gomez scored a lot of goals, but I have the feeling that Robbery + Müller could play much better without him. I'm tired of crosses from the wings. I want some nice playing from our players. And Gomez doesn't fit there IMO

------------


So basically it is either changing our formation or getting a real #10. And I don't see that happening.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Mazen96 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:51 am

If we're gonna play Lahm on the left, we're gonna have to play a direct winger in front of him, that's why i suggest moving Robben to the left, as he's a fairly good crosser, and moving ribery to the right ( He played that position for France back in 2006 and was pretty good). So what do you guys think about it?
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:31 am

YlonenXabi wrote:I know that Gomez scored a lot of goals, but I have the feeling that Robbery + Müller could play much better without him.


I would, on occasion, play like this (when we need Gustavo, Tymo, Schweini midfield). But in most games I would rather play 4-2-1-3 with Muller as the "1" and Robbery+Gomez. We need Gomez for corners and free-kicks, and nowadays I trust him as a finisher.


Mazen96 wrote:If we're gonna play Lahm on the left, we're gonna have to play a direct winger in front of him, that's why i suggest moving Robben to the left, as he's a fairly good crosser, and moving ribery to the right ( He played that position for France back in 2006 and was pretty good). So what do you guys think about it?


Personally I'd rather have their shots rather than their crosses :)

====

What we definitely must do, regardless of which formation we end up playing, is allow more freedom to our players. We must take more long shots. Since 2009 our most memorable games were all games were our players had more freedom, took more risks, shot more from outside the box.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:09 am

Very true. If we field an attacking midfield of Robbery and Kroos, we should constantly bombard the goal from long out. And Schweini and Tymo are good shots too, hell, even Lahm can get goals from far out.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby vijay92 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:49 pm

4-2-3-1 has proved to be failure in the last year or so.

1.4-4-2 should be used with schweinsteiger playing deeper with gustavo, so there is actual protection to the defence. This should give better balance when the winger and full backs attack. Muller should play just off Gomez ( he is got reasonable control and technique, not as bad as some try to make it) upfront. 4-4-2 just suits the squad better, there is no quality nr10 in the squad. Even if there is major injury crisis there will be various players to play those position.

2.If not then there is a 4-3-3 . Gustavo or tymo will play very deep a similar role a busquet or Keira play,for Barcelona. Schweini doing the xavi the role with ribery/kroos in the iniesta. Muller and robben on the wings with gomez through the centre . It is exact copy of the formation from barcelona. However the way the team would play would be more direct, with less possession and more drive to goal.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby The Spyware » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:28 pm

Mazen96 wrote:If we're gonna play Lahm on the left, we're gonna have to play a direct winger in front of him, that's why i suggest moving Robben to the left, as he's a fairly good crosser, and moving ribery to the right ( He played that position for France back in 2006 and was pretty good). So what do you guys think about it?


The Spyware wrote:
1/LVG was talking about a tactical impeding in having three right footed guys in the left side of the pitch which is impeding our creativity much from that wing
U can see when the ball reach Ribery-Mueller / Lahm / Tymo-Schweini they are ALL having the same sole option which is cutting inside to get the ball to their right and you see no one offering the proper width and when he offers it and receive the ball hugging the line you see him return again and cut inside ,, that was Obvious yesterday

Two or three years ago Lahm / Ribery combo was GREAT because we had then Ze Roberto who is a fantastic LEFT FOOTED player that was always offering that lacking ring now in our attacks from the left

So I think that is a reason that we should have Gustavo as our Left CDM

See yesterday we had both CDMS/CAM/LW/Striker/LB all right footed which was creating disability in every attack from the left because all the players wanted to da the SAME thing



IMO we can keep Both Ribery and Lahm on the left but then We need a player to do the role that Ze Reberto was doing PERFECTLY here three years ago .. Gustavo is left footed but he is playing very deep and his attacking skills isn't that good ,, Schweini is right footed ,,, May Be Alaba if he play as a CDM can do it
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby München Minded » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:45 pm

We've all seen Heynckes field two strikers, just not sure where he is coming from with this same formation and tactics as LvG. I don't expect him to do everything the opposite either, and our players know the single striker system -- but I liked what Hitzfeld did with two strikers, with midfielders out wide and two holding midfielders. Making a more attacking 4-4-2. If you look at most of the teams in the Bundesliga, they all have copied the 4-2-3-1 idea -- its funny how a successful idea by one club (Bayern) gets mimicked so that success can be felt at other clubs. Its also interesting how the Bundesliga goes through these iterations on formations, until some club comes along with players and a formation that totally take the Bundesliga by surprise and they can't deal with it until the following season. Heynckes really needs to branch out and find his own approach, that's what I thought he was going to do. As people have mentioned, we are still predicitable because the same people in the same formation with the same tactics -- and we also have become stagnant. Heynckes really should have employed some serious changes in the preseason, but to change things dramatically now might have disasterous consequences -- yet it is still his job as coach to make those changes and make sure bad things don't happen because of it.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby raz25 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:14 pm

I don't think we'll see a change from a 4-2-3-1. We don't have enough strikers for classic 4-4-2 and 4-3-3? Did Heynckes ever employ such a formation? Here's a suggestion:

--------------Gomez
Petersen-------Usami------Muller
----Alaba (left footed)--------Ribery (helps a lot in defense lately and is very good friend with Alaba), Schweini is just useless lately



lol seriously now, this would be a formation I would certainly try at least once:

-------------Gomez
Ribery------Schweini------Muller
--------Gustavo------Tymo

(+) Gomez - Schweini combo which is tested and works great
(+) Muller plays where he is best and considering his team work + Robben's selfishness, long term speaking they are perhaps equally valuable
(+) Robben gets to play full power 30 minutes against a shitty and (hopefully) tired defense
(+) at least 50% chances of Robben staying fit longer :mrgreen:
(+) we kind of get our Ze Robeto back with Gustavo playing between Lahm and Ribery (thanks to @Spyware, solid point IMO)

(-) Robben could get a heart attack (worst scenario) or could become a problem in the locker room and affect team chemistry in the short term (realistic scenario) for being a sub
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby uzi716 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:16 pm

I support a 4-4-2. Gustavo and Schweinsteiger in the middle, Robbery on the wings. Muller could partner with Gomez or play a bit behind him like Suarez and Carroll in Liverpool.

It works perfectly, Peteresen could sub for Gomez and Olic could sub for Muller.

I just wish we had someone to whip in corsses, Robbery like to come inside and get shots with their strong foot. Rafinha is the only one who could do that but he plays on the same side as Robben :?
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:52 pm

I like raz25's idea, but Robben being benched when fit is unrealistic
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby The Spyware » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:11 pm

IMO If we were to Play with Two strikers Then Olic must be one of them

I don't understand Heynckes really last match when he threw him out of the 18-men squad and put Petersen instead who is exactly the style of Gomez and won't be ever a great striker with him

In fact Heynckes in the preseason used Olic only as a wing which is useless IMO and he is just a good winger but much better Second striker

Remember Olic when he played alongside Gomez under Van Gaal was a very good combo

Olic with Mueller was Very good also

Olic have somethings not in any of our strikers , he is left footed , he is very fast coming back with huge work rate and good tackles that make you feel that we play with 3 players in the CDMs not two strikers ,, And he have much better skills than Gomez or the Kid Petersen

IMO Mueller + Gomez in the presence of Robbery = Useless , as all the play is directed to wing and you can see Mueller or Gomez once every 20 minutes and you see them only pass the ball back to Robbery to cut inside and do the same predictable thing again and again ,,

P.S : @ raz ; Benching Robben is impossible , He won't accept that under any circumstances and In Fact he will then Leave the team directly
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:27 pm

Yes I like that too. We can switch back to the formation that gave us the domestic double + CL final


-------------Olic-------Müller---------------
Ribery----Schweini---Gustavo----Robben


Gomez will be the replacement for Robbery (Müller wing Gomez front)

We have a much better defense now .... but I guess Olic won't be at his best as he was in 2009/2010.

That could be the main lineup. And depending against who we play we can introduce some changes. For example, if we play against stronger teams we can bench Müller or Olic and add one extra midfielder (Tymoshchuk) just like Mourinho does
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby raz25 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:37 pm

The Spyware wrote:P.S : @ raz ; Benching Robben is impossible , He won't accept that under any circumstances and In Fact he will then Leave the team directly


I guess you are right. But if it's for the good of the team then I'm fine with selling him. If Pastore was sold for 40 millions then I'm sure some sick fuck will pay 60 for Robben.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby raz25 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:41 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:
-------------Olic-------Müller---------------
Ribery----Schweini---Gustavo----Robben


Oh yeah, that could definitely work. But we'll have to see some big time sucking from Gomez before we'll see that again :)
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