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2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby uzi716 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:05 pm

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editor ... -class-for

Interesting article, I definitely agree our midfield needs to be reworked.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby Element » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:57 pm

Spox made a voting for Your FAV bayern formation

pick your formation and Players

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/b ... oting.html
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:04 am

Looks like the most popular right now is Heynckes' formation
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby appudds » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:40 am

Sad that fans still vote that formation highly.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:57 am

One of the, if not the most used formation in professional football, used by two of the teams in the World Cup semi-finals and three of the teams in the Champions League semi-finals. Why would it not be highly regarded?

Our problem is not the formation, which is a mere blueprint. It's the rigidity of it.
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-------Müller---------Müller-------
----Müller----Müller----Müller----
---------------Müller---------------
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby appudds » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:19 pm

quaazi wrote:One of the, if not the most used formation in professional football, used by two of the teams in the World Cup semi-finals and three of the teams in the Champions League semi-finals. Why would it not be highly regarded?

For our style of play, it isnt working man.. Why would they still want it?
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby München Minded » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:44 pm

The people voting on that formation are just agreeing, they aren't putting any thought into it.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby quaazi » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:34 pm

appudds wrote:For our style of play, it isnt working man.. Why would they still want it?

VERY broadly speaking, there are three main formations prevalent in professional football, which all correspond to some general tactical philosophy. There's the 4-2-3-1, a high-pressing counterattack based formation (I'd say the best example of how that should work is Dortmund), there's the 4-3-3, a possession orientated formation (obviously Barcelona is the paragon here). And the slowly dying 4-4-2, which is of the old school of cross-based, target man football, and not many top teams use it anymore anyway because of its lack of strength in the midfield area (Porto used to play 4-4-2 last season IIRC, but even then they did not face any greater opposition than other Portugese teams both domestically and in the Europa League).

What formation of those mentioned would you suggest? The 4-3-3 we could try, but I personally do not want a return to possession football, despite theoretically having the players for it (a midfield of Gustavo, in front of whom are Kroos and Schweini would be a great fit here. Müller would work better as a false nine striker, dropping deep and tearing apart defenses with his off the ball movement). And the 4-4-2 is not a formation a stronger side would want to use in modern football. You may present the Olic-Müller double striker combo, but that was frankly a 4-2-3-1 formation in which the striker and the playmaker roles constantly switched around, i.e. Müller would drop deep and Olic would be the "designated" striker, and vice versa. A 4-4-2 formation in the purest definition would require a target man and an agile forward up there, sorta like Carroll and Suarez in Liverpool (and Dalglish is switching to a 4-2-3-1 there too to allow Suarez to play a lot deeper, where his technical skill and vision are far better used).

What I'm trying to say is that many of you would like a return to the 4-4-2 formation, while it is actually pretty much unnecessary. Instead, our striker needs to be a far more versatile player, like Müller, Olic or (possibly, as I have not really seen him in action but heard good things) Petersen. A more fluid front four is what we need, but with Gomez around, it's not going to happen.

So like I said, the problem is not the formation, but rather than the tactical plan within the formation. Right now we have a very immobile forward in Gomez, who is definitely not being helped by being shadowed by the immobile playmaker that is Kroos. If we're lucky, then against Hamburg Müller's mere presence in the center of the pitch will help open up space that we so sorely lack with Kroos and Gomez. If not... then I can't imagine any other solution that involves Gomez as a first-team player, at least not until he becomes a more versatile player. For all my defending of Gomez, I can't deny that his breed of player is slowly dying out as the tactical evolution takes its toll. Look at the top strikers today - Messi, Ronaldo, Van Persie, Suarez, Rooney - they can all play either on the wing (first two) or behind another striker (last three).

So if Olic and Müller do not work in the 4-2-3-1 formation, then I gladly take back all I've said, because then I have no idea what's wrong. But we've yet to see those two in action so far. That being said, I do not think that it is at all unlikely that we will change the formation soon - look how many formation changes (however cosmetic) we've gone through lately.
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-Müller--Müller--Müller--Müller--
-------Müller---------Müller-------
----Müller----Müller----Müller----
---------------Müller---------------
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:33 pm

I do not like the 4-2-3-1, but I would like to see how it works with a different striker (Olic, Petersen, Muller) and also how this seemingly change to 4-1-4-1 when we need to attack works. I'll give it 2 or 3 more games to decide for sure.

One thing I know is that whenever our attacking players (mostly Muller and Robbery but if we play Olic he can help too) switch positions, we are much better in attacking. Also when Schweini is playing more offensive we become much better. And finally when the team starts taking more long shots. These have been the second halves of both of our last two games, and what I described as "this seemingly change to 4-1-4-1". So far, I have liked this. Whether it will work for 90 minutes, I don't know. It could be risky in defense and make us prone to counter attacks. Maybe this is why Heynckes so far has only been using it for 45 minutes.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby München Minded » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:25 pm

We tend to push up with our LB/RB like Wing backs, and Ribéry and Robben tend to float anyway I would suggest some sort of midfield diamond with 2 strikers (since 2 would allow for more difficult defending than just 1)

--------------- Olic (Petersen) ---------- Gomez ------------------
----------------------- Müller (Kroos) --------------------------
---------Ribéry ---------------------------- Robben---------------
---------------------------Schweini---------------------------------
Lahm-------------------------------------------------Rafinha
------------Badstuber-----------------Boateng--------------------
----------------------------Neuer---------------------------------

The only problems are Ribéry likes the wing, but who cares if he is told that he could better switch sides or go to the wing from playing LM in the diamond and to allow Lahm space on the wing to overlap (Lahm seems to come up quite often, especially on counter attacks) -- same applies to Robben -- this way if both were more "centered" they could easily switch sides as needed. Several people already stated that maybe we shouldn't play Robbery on the wings as much because they like to switch and float around, which I agree with. This will make it much more difficult to defend against -- and I like Müller better behind the strikers than Kroos, especially since Kroos doesn't look too good lately -- and Müller does great in a role that is not fully striker level. But allowing our wing-backs to overlap more when we are in attack mode and with Robbery free to roam about we could put in crosses or through passes to theoretically 3 scorers in or around the box: Gomez, Müller and Olic (or Petersen) -- with Robbery also providing shots from outside the box for our strikers to capitalize on if the keeper doesn't quite have the ball. To me this makes for a better attack than the 4-2-3-1 because it is just Gomez with Robbery possibly providing shots and maybe Müller or Kroos popping in. And Schweini does DM cleanup, passing, and general support in attack.

The other problem would be a striker at the expense of a dual DM setup so Gustavo would be benched. But this formation could be an alternate depending on who we play, and keep our current 4-2-3-1 at other times, or start with 4-2-3-1 and switch to this one if we run into trouble or against other teams parking the bus. Also this diamond 4-4-2 can be played if Gustavo is covering in defense for one of the CBs as needed.

4-4-2 isn't quite dead if the 4 in the middle are in a more robust formation and combined with wing-backs -- then its like having 6 in midfield on the attack.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:16 pm

I love the 4-2-3-1. But the most important thing if you are going to play it is having a great CAM, which we don't have. Someone like Kagawa, Özil, Diego. That kind of player.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby München Minded » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:30 pm

Personally, I think Bayern were stupid in not getting Özil -- now that he seems integrated at Real oh well. But I still think Müller is great as CAM -- much better than a striker or Right Winger. Curious if Robben would fit well there since he goes either left or right when switching but comes in toward the center to shoot -- he certainly could have an impact there. Also if Kroos made more of an impact at CAM as well. So we certainly have the players -- I don't want to go for Diego or Kagawa as I hate Diego and we have Usami as our guy as well that could play there with integration time. Its only a matter of time I think before we see a good CAM role filled at Bayern -- which is probably why Heynckes sticks with the 4-2-3-1 and is determined to make it work. Also Gomez needs time -- but once we are running great in all positions we will be unstoppable.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby sch0ll7 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:39 pm

Xabi has a point on some things...but the fact is Kroos and Muller are just as talented as Kagawa/Goetze/Diego if not more...we just need to use them right. Not many clubs have that much of a talent like we have with those two.

But I must say that Muller got us going everytime he played as CAM...and it was because we often switched formations with him as CAM...

1. He often went deep to get the ball and almost always tracks back when defending....that means we have 1 man extra in midfield with Schweini and Gustavo. That was evident to see when we played against Man Utd...we killed their midfield with Muller helping Schweini and MVB.

2. He goes forward when ever possible and is very good at moving into channels when we are counter attacking...that means we sometimes play 4-2-2-2 with him helping Gomez a lot or just moving forward into flanks in order to open space for Robben/Ribery cutting inside.

3. With his speed and game reading brains he often moves to flanks /taking 1 defender away from Robben/Ribery and helps Ribery and Robben to gain more space when dribbling.

I hope Kroos quickly shows why coach is counting on him...but I still think that Muller is the man to play as CAM as our attacking play is much faster with Muller next to Ribery and Robben.
Kroos is always looking for a faul when he has someone around him while Muller is like Messi...doesnt care about free kick he just wants to go past the defense and score. That is why he got us some penalties as he is not afraid of anyone but he is just pushing forward.


Maybe Kroos can be used next to Schweini when playing against weaker sides...and he could be our 1st sub as he would get a lot of playing time whenever Robben/RIbery/Schweini/Gustavo/MUller is injured.

But for now Muller just cant sit on the bench...he is one of our best performers in last 2 seasons. We can call him a machine!!:D
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby shileno » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:07 am

Any formation won't work if the offensive don't change the way they attack. It's way too predictable and easy to neutralize. You can notice that against Zurich the goals, and some clear chances, were made by surprise (Robben crossing from the left, Ribery shooting from the center). That creative spark is what we need in order to improve, maybe a 10 like Diego is the answer but it seems we can do it very well without him. I really hope to see a similar performance against stronger teams.
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Re: 2011/2012 Tactics & formations thread

Postby MunchenFC » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:16 am

shileno wrote:Any formation won't work if the offensive don't change the way they attack. It's way too predictable and easy to neutralize. You can notice that against Zurich the goals, and some clear chances, were made by surprise (Robben crossing from the left, Ribery shooting from the center). That creative spark is what we need in order to improve, maybe a 10 like Diego is the answer but it seems we can do it very well without him. I really hope to see a similar performance against stronger teams.


Against Zurich we had 21 shots, as Heynckes said "we just have to be more ruthless".
Give our offense a little more time to gel, once Ribery, Muller, and Gomez start scoring, we'll have enough sparks to set a rocket into space.
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