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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:09 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Yeah, cause the the rest of the domestic league is a lower division to Bayern. That's my point. If they are good enough, they come to Bayern, they don't stay at Schalke ;)

If this model goes through, clubs like Schalke won’t exist. You’ve already argued that you don’t think that they deserve to be supported monetarily. What academy systems will all those players come through without financial support to exist?
Look at my edit.

The difference is that with domestic league pyramids there is a monetary structure in place to support lower league clubs. There’s no way in hell daddy Perez is letting any money flow downstream to “lower” leagues if it takes place.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:11 am

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Would love to see this happen. :twisted:
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:25 am

munchen99 wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
dras_l wrote:This Super League is logical move for richest club in Europe. Funs around world want to watch Real vs Liverpool or Milan vs Arsenal not because they are the best clubs on the world, because they have strong marketing.
I’m happy Bayern is not part of this project; however, it will hurt us in few years. This Super League will have enormous revenue and Arsenal will easily buy our Davies for 200 mil €. I don’t see a way how UEFA could ban those clubs from domestic competition or players from NT. City lawyers alone beat them at Lausanne court, imagine what kind of lawyers they have together. It is sad day for European football.
THIS. Bayern should cut the crap and join. ESL is the future, domestic leagues are the past.


Not this ESL and the way it' s been pushed out - the closed nature of it is a huge nono for me. Probably the biggest gripe with the whole thing. Imagine having to beat arsenal 5-1 every 4 weeks. Too boring.
Like they would always score
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:25 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
#12 wrote:My future will be without this "sport" then... Can spend my well-EARNED money elsewhere...
I’d like to say the same but probably I wouldn’t resist watching Bayern. I’d definitely stop spending money though.

I stand firmly by what I said this morning. The league will get boring very quickly. So maybe I’ll lose interest in football naturally eventually, anyway.
Well, I assume money has to be spent to watch it...
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:46 am

sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
FFS, jokes like Juve can‘t even beat Porto
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:51 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:[quote="sherpthederp"][quote="PunkCapitalist"]Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
I agree that is the major deficiency of the proposal, yes. Every team should be subject to relegation/promotion.
it’s not a proposal it’s a mandate. If this happens it’s a pipe dream to think that serious promotion/relegation would EVER happen. That’s the whole reason this is happening. The Glazers and Kroenke want guarantees of return on investment and relegation threatens it. It’s either all or nothing, they won’t accept a format where they risk not participating if the can’t perform.[/quote]I don't think that's the case. This is being driven by Florentino, not by the English. The motivation here is too generate more money and divide it only among teams that actually contribute to generating it.[/quote]Arsenal? Tottenham? Milan?

If I get the choice between watching them and a rerun of FRIENDS (which I know by heart!) - guess what I‘ll watch...
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:57 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, i think Bayern will win at least 90 of the next 100 tittles, unless there is another structural change (like opening up the league 100% to outside money). What happened 50 years ago is of no relevance to the current trend. At some point in the last decade there was a structural change. I'm not sure what exactly it was, but the consequences are evident: talents are leaving BVB, Leverkusen and Schalke at ever younger ages. As things are it's impossible for these teams to compete with Bayern. It's not just the difference in money between us and them, it's also the difference in money between them and the EPL. Yes, once every decade you will have a Fluke like Bayern loosing to a 3rd division team. But it's just that... A fluke. It's not real competition.

On the ancillary points: sure Shitty and Chelski came out of nowhere, but it was only because of outside money. Sure, if you allow outside money, someone may compete with us (although I doubt money would come cause BuLi has a natural marketing handicap in no German former colonies). But under current conditions, i think it's imposible. Maybe Bayern losses the league in 4 years, after Müller and Lewy leave... Then we will splash some cash, buy out the best players from the challenger and bury them.


I disagree totally with your prediction that we’ll win at least 90 of the next 100 Bundesliga titles. I also disagree with your assessment of how often upsets happen. They happen much more often than that - especially in KO competitions of course. But even so. Even if it only happened once in the entire history of football that a team like Kaiserslautern or Leicester City won the league, that would be one more than the Super League can ever achieve.

Let’s say it lasts the rumoured 23 years. That’s 23 years with these teams and no chance for the small teams to make their way to the top. Let’s see. In the past 23 years:
- Kaiserslautern won the Bundesliga
- Deportivo won La Liga
- Porto won the Champions League
- Greece won EURO 2004
- Montpellier won Ligue 1
- Leicester City won the Premier League

These are the ones I can think of right now. And they’re excluding other upsets involving “big teams”. For example, I’d say Inter winning the CL in 2010 was a pretty big upset.

This is the football dream. To make your way to the top and taste success against all odds. Even if you can’t keep it consistently for the long term. It doesn’t matter. That’s what clubs like Milan and the rest of the Super League can’t accept. They messed up, they lost their ability to maintain that success, but they think they have some divine right to that success.

Clubs of all shapes and sizes fight to get promoted. They fight to qualify for a European competition. They fight to win the league, to reach the final. Let’s use another analogy: there are many bad consequences of capitalism just like UEFA is also a corrupt organisation with bad aspects, but why has the world progressed so rapidly under it? Because it incentivises innovation and progress. It’s the same with football. It’s kept exciting because teams have something to play for. But after the first few matchdays, when several teams will be 10 or more points behind first place already, what possible incentive could they have to play in the Super League other than to maybe ruin their rivals’ chances (rivalries which will mainly be from a past age when they played in domestic leagues)?

It may be true that clubs like Bayern and Juventus have been successful throughout the history of their leageus but it is not true that these clubs have been without competition. It is not even true this decade, even though we won countless titles. We only ran away with the title in a few of them. The champion alone is not a good enough indicator of whether that team faced competition or not. We shouldn’t confuse the inability of other teams to remain relevant for long with the lack of competition for the big teams.


I guess there is a balance to be weighted, but in the abstract a league with 4 different winners in a decade but none wins more than 3 is better than one in which 1 team wins 9 and the other is won by an underdog. The trade off is between the "underdog chance" vs "consistent competitiveness".

I dispute that we've had competition over the past decade. We didn't have. At their best, after breaking records for most points, Tuchel's BVB couldn't win against Bayern. At our worst, under a completely incompetent clown Kovac, who denigrated his own players in public, we still won. It's always been the case that clubs like Dortmund lose their players to bigger fish, but things are different now. They are losing their players while they are still teenagers. They can't assemble a squad and hold it together for any stretch of time. This is different than before. I'm convinced that, unless there is radical change, Bayern will continue monopolizing the league indefinitely.
Tuchel‘s Dortmund won the Pokal... After winning AT Munich... And after trailing on top of that...
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Re: European Football

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:18 am

Uefa is also to blame...
UCL could have been done better like for ex ... 4 groups with 6 teams each... top four from each group advance to the the KO stages.

Or

Three groups of 8 teams each... top four advance the rest will be determined by the best teams finishing 5th
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Re: European Football

Postby T4L10N » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:32 am

This is getting ugly. Why by default people think that the most of the big players will go for the ESL? So you are telling me that if "Haalands" and "Mbappes" choose to play for Sevilla and Valencia except of RM and Barca, people will still watch RM vs Barca game? Not all players going to choose money over playing in the WC for their NTs and its not like they still wont be able make millions unless they join ESL. 25 years ago the most of those ESL clubs were complete jokes so you are wrong if you think they cant create new big clubs in the future other than the ones joining ESL. People will enjoy watching "Ronaldinho" whether or not he plays for Barcelona.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:43 am

Someone said it better than anything else I’ve seen. Had the Super League been formed 25 years ago instead, it would have teams we consider Europa League level at best now. It’s a purely cynical move. Most of these teams aren’t even at the top right now let alone in the future.
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:54 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Someone said it better than anything else I’ve seen. Had the Super League been formed 25 years ago instead, it would have teams we consider Europa League level at best now. It’s a purely cynical move. Most of these teams aren’t even at the top right now let alone in the future.
Listen to that son of siblings Florentini: "by 2024 these clubs would be dead!"

Think he means the English ones? Or maybe -again- the south European ones unable to deal with money? I‘m sorry, I don’t want to be stereotypical, but there’s a pattern here...
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:02 am

The English ones are being taken for a ride by Perez and Agnelli who need them. I hope they pull out.
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Re: European Football

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:14 am

I was first in favor of it however when I saw the tings into more detail I saw the evil behind it.
If the contract has been signed I don't know it can be done to bring them back to their senses...
I was perplexed by the timing of it.. couldn't they waited until the end of the season?
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Re: European Football

Postby Bayern_Swede » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am

Perez is a tyrant and should be banned from participating in anything close to european football. He and his likes only cares about money and clearly doesn't understand why the majority of us who supports a football club actually does it. He said in his interview that if young people find football boring, then the matches can be shorter.

The man is ready to kill, butcher and devour the sport of football in order to increase revenue.

This super league is only the first step.

And really, Uefa is to blame that opened the door in the first place, making european football a smorgasbord for quarterly capitalists that doesn't care about the sport or the fans. The slippery slope of this is real. If the super league becomes a reality it's only a matter of time before it's becoming an international league completely disconnected from history, origin and sporting value.



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Re: European Football

Postby T4L10N » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:26 am

ramsej84 wrote:I was first in favor of it however when I saw the tings into more detail I saw the evil behind it.
If the contract has been signed I don't know it can be done to bring them back to their senses...
I was perplexed by the timing of it.. couldn't they waited until the end of the season?


Same here, just once I saw that its about greed and As Bielsa (if I'm not mistaken) said, rich become richer and poor - poorer. Those clubs dont want to share revenues with smaller clubs and thats the reason. They just want all remaining clubs to be donors and feed them with transfer fees only. If they pull this, I am sure they gonna have enough leverage to manipulate player prices such that small clubs wont be able to sell the players at "good" prices
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