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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:42 am

sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
sherpthederp wrote:[quote="PunkCapitalist"]Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
I agree that is the major deficiency of the proposal, yes. Every team should be subject to relegation/promotion.
it’s not a proposal it’s a mandate. If this happens it’s a pipe dream to think that serious promotion/relegation would EVER happen. That’s the whole reason this is happening. The Glazers and Kroenke want guarantees of return on investment and relegation threatens it. It’s either all or nothing, they won’t accept a format where they risk not participating if the can’t perform.[/quote]I don't think that's the case. This is being driven by Florentino, not by the English. The motivation here is too generate more money and divide it only among teams that actually contribute to generating it.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:56 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:I don't think that's the case. This is being driven by Florentino, not by the English. The motivation here is too generate more money and divide it only among teams that actually contribute to generating it.


...And we're the naive ones :lol:
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:57 am

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Holy shit. The man actually hates football.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:03 am

Can't see tweet? Click here!

This right here. Capitalism is all about merit, no? You wanna stay a top club? Earn it. Learn to spend your club's money right instead of throwing it away on every shiny new player, dipshit.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:05 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, i think Bayern will win at least 90 of the next 100 tittles, unless there is another structural change (like opening up the league 100% to outside money). What happened 50 years ago is of no relevance to the current trend. At some point in the last decade there was a structural change. I'm not sure what exactly it was, but the consequences are evident: talents are leaving BVB, Leverkusen and Schalke at ever younger ages. As things are it's impossible for these teams to compete with Bayern. It's not just the difference in money between us and them, it's also the difference in money between them and the EPL. Yes, once every decade you will have a Fluke like Bayern loosing to a 3rd division team. But it's just that... A fluke. It's not real competition.

On the ancillary points: sure Shitty and Chelski came out of nowhere, but it was only because of outside money. Sure, if you allow outside money, someone may compete with us (although I doubt money would come cause BuLi has a natural marketing handicap in no German former colonies). But under current conditions, i think it's imposible. Maybe Bayern losses the league in 4 years, after Müller and Lewy leave... Then we will splash some cash, buy out the best players from the challenger and bury them.


I disagree totally with your prediction that we’ll win at least 90 of the next 100 Bundesliga titles. I also disagree with your assessment of how often upsets happen. They happen much more often than that - especially in KO competitions of course. But even so. Even if it only happened once in the entire history of football that a team like Kaiserslautern or Leicester City won the league, that would be one more than the Super League can ever achieve.

Let’s say it lasts the rumoured 23 years. That’s 23 years with these teams and no chance for the small teams to make their way to the top. Let’s see. In the past 23 years:
- Kaiserslautern won the Bundesliga
- Deportivo won La Liga
- Porto won the Champions League
- Greece won EURO 2004
- Montpellier won Ligue 1
- Leicester City won the Premier League

These are the ones I can think of right now. And they’re excluding other upsets involving “big teams”. For example, I’d say Inter winning the CL in 2010 was a pretty big upset.

This is the football dream. To make your way to the top and taste success against all odds. Even if you can’t keep it consistently for the long term. It doesn’t matter. That’s what clubs like Milan and the rest of the Super League can’t accept. They messed up, they lost their ability to maintain that success, but they think they have some divine right to that success.

Clubs of all shapes and sizes fight to get promoted. They fight to qualify for a European competition. They fight to win the league, to reach the final. Let’s use another analogy: there are many bad consequences of capitalism just like UEFA is also a corrupt organisation with bad aspects, but why has the world progressed so rapidly under it? Because it incentivises innovation and progress. It’s the same with football. It’s kept exciting because teams have something to play for. But after the first few matchdays, when several teams will be 10 or more points behind first place already, what possible incentive could they have to play in the Super League other than to maybe ruin their rivals’ chances (rivalries which will mainly be from a past age when they played in domestic leagues)?

It may be true that clubs like Bayern and Juventus have been successful throughout the history of their leageus but it is not true that these clubs have been without competition. It is not even true this decade, even though we won countless titles. We only ran away with the title in a few of them. The champion alone is not a good enough indicator of whether that team faced competition or not. We shouldn’t confuse the inability of other teams to remain relevant for long with the lack of competition for the big teams.


I guess there is a balance to be weighted, but in the abstract a league with 4 different winners in a decade but none wins more than 3 is better than one in which 1 team wins 9 and the other is won by an underdog. The trade off is between the "underdog chance" vs "consistent competitiveness".

I dispute that we've had competition over the past decade. We didn't have. At their best, after breaking records for most points, Tuchel's BVB couldn't win against Bayern. At our worst, under a completely incompetent clown Kovac, who denigrated his own players in public, we still won. It's always been the case that clubs like Dortmund lose their players to bigger fish, but things are different now. They are losing their players while they are still teenagers. They can't assemble a squad and hold it together for any stretch of time. This is different than before. I'm convinced that, unless there is radical change, Bayern will continue monopolizing the league indefinitely.
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Re: European Football

Postby CiriacoS » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:06 am

The motivation is the following...As Florentino said it himself...The salaries go up and the revenues decrease. We need help.

In other words, we are not able to sustain the bubble we created ourselves by paying enormous salaries and transfer fees for players without actually being able to cover that financially (but we were super happy to compete and win the CL anyhow) and as the first major crisis hits the whole world we are now saying go fuck yourself, we have found a cartel of 12 clubs who are in the same shit like us and we have an investment bank to back us up. And yeah, we don't care about competition, we will just play every week and pump revenue up.

That's basically it, in a nutshell, directly confirmed by Perez on TV. He is just not even trying to make look better. He basically said I can't pay for Mbappe, lets make our own league where we will be able to do it.

And actually there is a catch in it. The English teams are used here as a bait. They don't actually really need this. The Spanish and Italians teams are orchestrating this.

To sum it up, Rummenige and Hoeness might as well hang themselves. Their life's work of making a sustainable club thrown out of the window by entitled maniacs motivated solely by greed who have an investment bank to back them up when shit goes south.

Good luck keeping up with that.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:06 am

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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:12 am

Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:I don't think that's the case. This is being driven by Florentino, not by the English. The motivation here is too generate more money and divide it only among teams that actually contribute to generating it.


...And we're the naive ones :lol:

Our entire squad is composed of players who came from clubs who Punk doesn’t think are worthy of receiving funding. I’d bet less that 5 percent of players in that “glorious revenue generating 12” were actually homegrown. They may not generate revenue but they generate the players that the so called big clubs rely on.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:14 am

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Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:18 am

CiriacoS wrote:To sum it up, Rummenige and Hoeness might as well hang themselves. Their life's work of making a sustainable club thrown out of the window by entitled maniacs motivated solely by greed who have an investment bank to back them up when shit goes south.


I hope I am not wrong but I believe we will come out of this as the biggest winners. I just cant see a peaceful transition to this break-away super league. Things will change and hopefully it will be in the right direction. This is the right time to end this nonsense.
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Re: European Football

Postby Ottomeister87 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:19 am

And i cant watch old fucks who wave money in football clubs. Anyway.

I read a comment it was not fair losing to PSG without Lewy? Injuries happen, deal with it. If that would be a reason we could replay every match we ever lost. #-o

Funny thing is sport1 made a report about why certain teams are in the ESL, ofcourse to correct their balance. Real is seemingly not far behind Barca in this matter :lol: :lol:

Bundesliga not on espn or fox? Here in the Netherlands it is ( Foxsports got switched for ESPN, but both show(ed) it.

@Punk. Benfica is indeed a bigger club compared to shitty. They have had more successes compared to them, have a way bigger fan base and had actual international succes. This is a club with a lot of tradition ( ofcourse over the last years they declined poorly ) but they are still way bigger compared to Shitty.

Actually, i talked about my brother with this since he is a lawyer for big companies, with different jurisdictions. And the fact that Uefa or Fifa can ban players by performing for their NT's wouldnt even be illegal, since those NT's fall under the UEFA and FIFA banner and their tournaments, same goes with the contracts of players. So if those ESL players happen to create completely new contracts with the team they play for, they would even have to go with a big legal procedure since it FALLS under the UEFA and or FIFA, but if they somehow reach an agreement, they would fall out of the UEFA/FIFA banner, hence why they could be banned from Nations League, WC, EC and even friendlies and they couldnt do jack shit about it. Even the FIFPRO couldnt do anything.
Even the EU commission in Brussel could call a stop to this ESL with the monopoly/kartel rights since everyone else could be excluded without having a chance to participate in it. They are also the reason a salary cap has not been possible so far compared to the US since it is forbidden to tell how much someone can earn or not.
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Re: European Football

Postby CiriacoS » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:26 am

sch0ll7 wrote:
CiriacoS wrote:To sum it up, Rummenige and Hoeness might as well hang themselves. Their life's work of making a sustainable club thrown out of the window by entitled maniacs motivated solely by greed who have an investment bank to back them up when shit goes south.


I hope I am not wrong but I believe we will come out of this as the biggest winners. I just cant see a peaceful transition to this break-away super league. Things will change and hopefully it will be in the right direction. This is the right time to end this.
I tend to agree with you, but honestly I am not sure.

Its too early to tell. It might be just a stunt. But from the actions taken until now it looks pretty serious to me. We are speaking about the biggest teams on the continent. It might be a bargaining chip but on the other hand if UEFA acts in a weak manner here it may very well happen that we wont see another CL.

Huge risks on both sides. We will se who will prevail. In any case Bayern can not afford to be out of any major European competition.

Its a wake up call for the BuLi I have to say. Too long the league stayed passive. Competition is not existent and clubs like RBL and Dortmund need real financial boost to finally compete both in Germany and Europe. Something has to be done in that respect. This might prove to be a chance for that.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:36 am

sherpthederp wrote:
Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:I don't think that's the case. This is being driven by Florentino, not by the English. The motivation here is too generate more money and divide it only among teams that actually contribute to generating it.


...And we're the naive ones

Our entire squad is composed of players who came from clubs who Punk doesn’t think are worthy of receiving funding. I’d bet less that 5 percent of players in that “glorious revenue generating 12” were actually homegrown. They may not generate revenue but they generate the players that the so called big clubs rely on.
Yeah, cause the the rest of the domestic league is a lower division to Bayern. That's my point. If they are good enough, they come to Bayern, they don't stay at Schalke ;)

The fact that there is BuLi first division doesn't mean that there can't be a second division right? Well, the distance between bayern and the median team in BuLi 1 is arguably larger than the difference between that team and the median BuLi 2 team.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:46 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Yeah, cause the the rest of the domestic league is a lower division to Bayern. That's my point. If they are good enough, they come to Bayern, they don't stay at Schalke ;)

If this model goes through, clubs like Schalke won’t exist. You’ve already argued that you don’t think that they deserve to be supported monetarily. What academy systems will all those players come through without financial support to exist?
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:53 am

sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Yeah, cause the the rest of the domestic league is a lower division to Bayern. That's my point. If they are good enough, they come to Bayern, they don't stay at Schalke ;)

If this model goes through, clubs like Schalke won’t exist. You’ve already argued that you don’t think that they deserve to be supported monetarily. What academy systems will all those players come through without financial support to exist?
Look at my edit.
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