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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:27 pm

Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
Lahmies wrote:
For you, maybe. I'd rather watch us play against teams who actually earned their sports there. I genuinely find that more exciting to watch, especially when small teams upset big teams in the CL. And with time, who's to say Leicester, Leeds, Sevilla won't become new big teams? Chelsea, Tottenham, City, were no one a decade or two ago.
Basic economics say they won't.


I don't think so. Other billionaires can seize the opportunity to buy these clubs now and actually make it to the CL. Plus, many of them already have history and large fanbases to capitalize on.


No, because their domestic leagues won't produce any TV rights because no one is going to pay for a package that only includes Leicester vs Leeds and similar matches. Hence, investors would have no incentive to invest. The only way would be for shady foreign dictators that need sports-washing to purchase several teams each.
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Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:29 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, for a simple reason; those clubs are not competitive anyway. As I've said before, having Bayern play in the BL is like having Usain Bolt running against kindergartners. Sure, once every decade, Bayern may forget to wake up due to a hangover, not show up and lose by forfeit, but other than that, it's not a competition.

It is impossible to stress this point too much: Dortmund can't keep a hold of 21-year olds now for more than 2 seasons. Leipzig couldn't retain Werner, Keita, Upa. Simply put, there is no way that Bayern wins less than 8 of the next 10 leagues.

What German football fans and clubs want (but don't say they want) with their 50+1 rules, amateur management and "stepping stone" business models is semi-AMATEUR (as in non-professional) sports. If that's what they want, let them have it. Let the domestic leagues become the second division and competitive teams play on the first division (ESL).


Dude do you even know what football is all about? I dont know where you come from but just by seeing your last few posts I reckon you are not from Europe? Dont want to offend you but please stop talking rubbish. Dont talk about what German football fans and clubs want and need.

What Dortmund is doing is the right way. They were almost bankrupt some 15 years ago. They worked hard and slowly came back to where they belong. They are now considered one of the top 10 clubs of the last decade. That is what football is all about. work hard, compete, earn your way to the top.On the other side you have Tottenham, Arsenal, Milan, Inter etc...that practicaly havent won anything in the last 15 years or more and they get to play in some closed league just because their owners are greedy bastards.

Clubs like Schalke, Dortmund, Atalanta, Sevilla, Lyon etc..need to at least have a fighting chance to achieve something. If clubs with greedy owners take that away from them what is the point of football? Everyone else becomes amateur feeder clubs just because some greedy fucks decided they want to be untouchable and profit from their backstabbing?
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Re: European Football

Postby MihailT » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:32 pm

By the same standard, should we have disbanded Bayern itself in 90's? We hadn't won fuck all European glory for 20+ years and all the money was in Italy. Good thing they didn't secede off to form a Superleague with Napoli, Parma, Blackburn and whoever happened to be on top at that particular moment.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:33 pm

Punk, the whole reason this ESL is being created to to protect investors from relegation or merit based qualification. Plus there’s zero incentive for those teams to filter money down to the “second division” domestic leagues you are proposing. It just won’t happen. If the ESL is created, domestic football will straight up die.
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Re: European Football

Postby Pittbay » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:33 pm

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Milner confirms that the first the players heard of it was yesterday, which Jesus Christ what a slap in the face. It’ll take much bigger names than Milner but I do wonder if the players will dynamite this.
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European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:39 pm

Loads of players from the clubs themselves are speaking against it, not to mention from other clubs. Like I told you this morning, it is far from a given that these teams will attract all the best players. A transfer of power is definitely possible. It’s teams with a number of world class players that make football exciting not names and badges! It makes little difference to the players whether Salah+Mane+Firminho vs De Bruyne and co. happens in England or in the Netherlands. The players themselves will make a league currently unwatched worth watching.

These people have lived and breathed football all their lives. It’s true that they chase money but once you change the very essence of what football is, that is not such a foregone conclusion anymore.

I consider it at least as likely that this is the beginning of the end for these 12 traditional names as it is that they are going to be miles ahead of everyone else. And I’m being negative. Frankly I think it’s more likely that this is what’s going to happen, if anything happens at all.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:41 pm

Even on purely sporting reasons I can’t stand this concept. The reason these matchups are so special is the scarcity of them. I don’t eat dessert every night instead of dinner, and don’t want high profile European matchups to be cheaply devalued by being played every week.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:42 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:And yet there isn’t a single league, except maybe La Liga, where the top teams are still the same as 15 years ago or 20, let alone 50. Some are still there, but the teams competing with them and winning titles at the same time were different. Some teams have disappeared entirely, like Deportivo. Others vanished for years (Liverpool). New ones emerged, like Man City and Chelsea.

Youre saying those traditional teams are irrelevant because they’re uncompetitive. 15 years ago City would have been even worse because they were neither competitive nor traditional. These teams are there simply because they started the thing themselves at the time when they happened to be relevant. Who says they will still be in 5 years?

Do you seriously believe Bayern are going to win the Bundesliga perpetually? Do you think we’re going to win the next 100 titles? Did Inter need the Super League to stop Juve’s similarly seemingly unbreakable run? They barely even needed CL money!

It’s all very easy tell us these teams have no competition and yet, Bayern this season were eliminated from the cup by a second division side who might even go on to win the thing. Real Madrid by an even lower division club. In the past 10 years Leicester City won the Premier League and Borussia Dortmund reached a CL final. These things are IMPOSSIBLE in the football world you’re advocating for!

Not a SINGLE Champions League semi finalist in 2020 is in the Super Cup. It’s an incredibly twisted narrative based on a narrative taken from the last 5-10 years alone and assuming that it is an infallible blueprint for the rest of history. And it’s not even based on truth.

Ultimately, you, Punk, gave exactly the reason why the Super League is a terrible idea whose only purpose is money. You said clubs with a long footballing tradition are irrelevant and small because they’re no longer competitive. And guess what? We no longer see Nottingham in the CL, we don’t see Benfica and Deportivo play the big Wednesday night games. In fact, we haven’t even seen Arsenal, Man United, and especially Milan play them for some time? Why? Because no matter how big they are they were incapable of remaining competitive and the football we know, love, and are defending has always been based on merit. In the football the Super League wants, a team could end up having the footballing level of a Maltese second division club and they would still be playing all the important games with the big boys.


Yes, i think Bayern will win at least 90 of the next 100 tittles, unless there is another structural change (like opening up the league 100% to outside money). What happened 50 years ago is of no relevance to the current trend. At some point in the last decade there was a structural change. I'm not sure what exactly it was, but the consequences are evident: talents are leaving BVB, Leverkusen and Schalke at ever younger ages. As things are it's impossible for these teams to compete with Bayern. It's not just the difference in money between us and them, it's also the difference in money between them and the EPL. Yes, once every decade you will have a Fluke like Bayern loosing to a 3rd division team. But it's just that... A fluke. It's not real competition.

On the ancillary points: sure Shitty and Chelski came out of nowhere, but it was only because of outside money. Sure, if you allow outside money, someone may compete with us (although I doubt money would come cause BuLi has a natural marketing handicap in no German former colonies). But under current conditions, i think it's imposible. Maybe Bayern losses the league in 4 years, after Müller and Lewy leave... Then we will splash some cash, buy out the best players from the challenger and bury them.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:48 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, for a simple reason; those clubs are not competitive anyway. As I've said before, having Bayern play in the BL is like having Usain Bolt running against kindergartners. Sure, once every decade, Bayern may forget to wake up due to a hangover, not show up and lose by forfeit, but other than that, it's not a competition.

It is impossible to stress this point too much: Dortmund can't keep a hold of 21-year olds now for more than 2 seasons. Leipzig couldn't retain Werner, Keita, Upa. Simply put, there is no way that Bayern wins less than 8 of the next 10 leagues.

What German football fans and clubs want (but don't say they want) with their 50+1 rules, amateur management and "stepping stone" business models is semi-AMATEUR (as in non-professional) sports. If that's what they want, let them have it. Let the domestic leagues become the second division and competitive teams play on the first division (ESL).


Dude do you even know what football is all about? I dont know where you come from but just by seeing your last few posts I reckon you are not from Europe? Dont want to offend you but please stop talking rubbish. Dont talk about what German football fans and clubs want and need.

What Dortmund is doing is the right way. They were almost bankrupt some 15 years ago. They worked hard and slowly came back to where they belong. They are now considered one of the top 10 clubs of the last decade. That is what football is all about. work hard, compete, earn your way to the top.On the other side you have Tottenham, Arsenal, Milan, Inter etc...that practicaly havent won anything in the last 15 years or more and they get to play in some closed league just because their owners are greedy bastards.

Clubs like Schalke, Dortmund, Atalanta, Sevilla, Lyon etc..need to at least have a fighting chance to achieve something. If clubs with greedy owners take that away from them what is the point of football? Everyone else becomes amateur feeder clubs just because some greedy fucks decided they want to be untouchable and profit from their backstabbing?


The problem with your argument is that it negates reality in that these clubs ARE ALREADY FEEDER CLUBS unable to compete. Atalanta Schalke Sevilla Dortmund Lyon can't compete. Sure they can fluke their way to 1 tittle per decade, but they get dismantled immediately afterwards. That's no competition. Not really. The core fundamental problem is that there is an abyss between Bayern and the next best. Bayern does not belong with BVB and Leipzig, it's like having pros play school children.

PD: Football is entertainment, all else is the romantization of dreamers.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:53 pm

Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:58 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:08 am

sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
I agree that is the major deficiency of the proposal, yes. Every team should be subject to relegation/promotion.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:12 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Here, Florentino Pérez said more or less what I have been arguing for. I don't agree with guarantees spots for Milan, Arsenal et al but the proposal is better than the status quo.

https://twitter.com/SoyCalcio_/status/1 ... 82084?s=19

ESL won't be a closed league, the 15 are only the initial founders + 5 teams will be admitted from UEFA. If done correctly (ie with the possiblity of relegation for everyone) this could be great.

So 75% of the teams can never be touched regardless of sporting merit and the other 25% will have to fight for their spots EVERY season regardless of their sporting merit. That’s not a promotion/relegation system it’s a f*cking oligarchy of entitled clubs.

Not to mention literally half of the proposed elite ESL clubs dropped points to clubs they think they are better than this weekend.
I agree that is the major deficiency of the proposal, yes. Every team should be subject to relegation/promotion.
it’s not a proposal it’s a mandate. If this happens it’s a pipe dream to think that serious promotion/relegation would EVER happen. That’s the whole reason this is happening. The Glazers and Kroenke want guarantees of return on investment and relegation threatens it. It’s either all or nothing, they won’t accept a format where they risk not participating if the can’t perform.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:17 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Yes, i think Bayern will win at least 90 of the next 100 tittles, unless there is another structural change (like opening up the league 100% to outside money). What happened 50 years ago is of no relevance to the current trend. At some point in the last decade there was a structural change. I'm not sure what exactly it was, but the consequences are evident: talents are leaving BVB, Leverkusen and Schalke at ever younger ages. As things are it's impossible for these teams to compete with Bayern. It's not just the difference in money between us and them, it's also the difference in money between them and the EPL. Yes, once every decade you will have a Fluke like Bayern loosing to a 3rd division team. But it's just that... A fluke. It's not real competition.

On the ancillary points: sure Shitty and Chelski came out of nowhere, but it was only because of outside money. Sure, if you allow outside money, someone may compete with us (although I doubt money would come cause BuLi has a natural marketing handicap in no German former colonies). But under current conditions, i think it's imposible. Maybe Bayern losses the league in 4 years, after Müller and Lewy leave... Then we will splash some cash, buy out the best players from the challenger and bury them.


I disagree totally with your prediction that we’ll win at least 90 of the next 100 Bundesliga titles. I also disagree with your assessment of how often upsets happen. They happen much more often than that - especially in KO competitions of course. But even so. Even if it only happened once in the entire history of football that a team like Kaiserslautern or Leicester City won the league, that would be one more than the Super League can ever achieve.

Let’s say it lasts the rumoured 23 years. That’s 23 years with these teams and no chance for the small teams to make their way to the top. Let’s see. In the past 23 years:
- Kaiserslautern won the Bundesliga
- Deportivo won La Liga
- Porto won the Champions League
- Greece won EURO 2004
- Montpellier won Ligue 1
- Leicester City won the Premier League

These are the ones I can think of right now. And they’re excluding other upsets involving “big teams”. For example, I’d say Inter winning the CL in 2010 was a pretty big upset.

This is the football dream. To make your way to the top and taste success against all odds. Even if you can’t keep it consistently for the long term. It doesn’t matter. That’s what clubs like Milan and the rest of the Super League can’t accept. They messed up, they lost their ability to maintain that success, but they think they have some divine right to that success.

Clubs of all shapes and sizes fight to get promoted. They fight to qualify for a European competition. They fight to win the league, to reach the final. Let’s use another analogy: there are many bad consequences of capitalism just like UEFA is also a corrupt organisation with bad aspects, but why has the world progressed so rapidly under it? Because it incentivises innovation and progress. It’s the same with football. It’s kept exciting because teams have something to play for. But after the first few matchdays, when several teams will be 10 or more points behind first place already, what possible incentive could they have to play in the Super League other than to maybe ruin their rivals’ chances (rivalries which will mainly be from a past age when they played in domestic leagues)?

It may be true that clubs like Bayern and Juventus have been successful throughout the history of their leageus but it is not true that these clubs have been without competition. It is not even true this decade, even though we won countless titles. We only ran away with the title in a few of them. The champion alone is not a good enough indicator of whether that team faced competition or not. We shouldn’t confuse the inability of other teams to remain relevant for long with the lack of competition for the big teams.
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Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:20 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:The problem with your argument is that it negates reality in that these clubs ARE ALREADY FEEDER CLUBS unable to compete. Atalanta Schalke Sevilla Dortmund Lyon can't compete. Sure they can fluke their way to 1 tittle per decade, but they get dismantled immediately afterwards. That's no competition. Not really. The core fundamental problem is that there is an abyss between Bayern and the next best. Bayern does not belong with BVB and Leipzig, it's like having pros play school children.

PD: Football is entertainment, all else is the romantization of dreamers.


There were always strong sides and weaker sides in a competition. There were always sides that dominated a certain period of time. There was Gladbach, Hamburg, Dortmund, Bayern..even Leverkusen. that is what football is all about.
we were lucky to have great guys that lead this football club in the right direction for the last 3 decades. Others didnt.

There was a period in the 90s when AC milan, Inter, Lazio, Juve...even Parma were the best teams in the world. But some of them fucked up and others that kept working hard and were smart took advantage of that. You have Roma, Napoli coming back from ashes, Atalanta doing great etc...They dont deserve to be cut off and lose everything they worked hard for just because Chinese owners and other greedy bastards made a deal behind the closed doors.

Imagine how a club like Leicester is getting fucked right now. They fought hard, made smart investments, scouting...to climb towards the top while Arsenal made all those mistakes for the last 15 years...and now when they somehow got better and can actually keep some of their top players...Arsenal all of the sudden will be able to make a feeder club of them. Where is justice in that?

AC milan wasnt playing in the CL for the last 6-7 years. and now all of the sudden they will be playing in a closed league and take players from Atalanta, Roma, Napoli etc...while those clubs fought hard year after year to play in the CL and build their club.

If you really think that football is just entertainment and nothing else. you are in the wrong place my man. Maybe you didnt have a chance to live through football and see it for what football really is..I am sorry if you havent experienced it in a way a lot of football fans did. This is just another confirmation that you really cant grasp and understand why most football fans in europe are against it.
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