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European Football

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Re: European Football

Postby aterford » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:How do you figure? I'd imagine it's perfectly within their rights to decide who gets to play in their competitions (much like the ESL is doing after all). In fact, perhaps the fact that a rival big association is going to pop up weakens that argument because as long as (almost) all football comes under the FIFA banner that might make sense, but once you've got a diverse market, not so much.
I'm not a lawyer, but: a good analogy is web browsers. What FIFA wants to do with the World Cup would be equivalent to Microsoft restricting all windows OS from installing Google Chrome. We know for a fact that that would be illegal.


Suspect it would perhaps be more akin to how the only 'officially supported' channel for installing apps on your iPhone is through Apple's App Store, or something like that (which has held up in court).

Of course the fundamental difference here is that you've purchased the device and it's your property. Ownership more or less conveys the right to do with that product as you please. You are able to install Chrome on your Windows PC because you own the PC. The players and/or the Super League do not 'own' the World Cup (or similar competitions) and as best I can figure don't carry any sort of inherent right to compete in it. FIFA more or less "owns" the World Cup in this scenario - if anything, it's backwards - it's more like FIFA is Microsoft and Google is the ESL and they're trying to force Microsoft to include a Chrome install as part of their OS. :wink: :lol:
God Bless Thomas Müller
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:01 pm

Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Lol talk about chasing the money and sending a big FU to the fans. So anyone who doesn't own a smart tv or video game console will be obliged to watch football on their computers or phones.
Did you know that the only legal way to watch the Bundesliga in South America (BR included) at the moment is through a shitty app called OneFootball? ESPN/Fox no longer have broadcasting rights. You know why? Cause Bundesliga just doesn't sell.


Tbf, it also airs on national brazilian television on (select) sundays, which is free and accessible to pretty much everyone. It's actually becoming more popular.
Bundesliga is on public TV in Brazil? How? I know a few BR Bayern fans from the other Bayern forum, and they told me it's only on OF.
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Re: European Football

Postby munchen99 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:01 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
dras_l wrote:This Super League is logical move for richest club in Europe. Funs around world want to watch Real vs Liverpool or Milan vs Arsenal not because they are the best clubs on the world, because they have strong marketing.
I’m happy Bayern is not part of this project; however, it will hurt us in few years. This Super League will have enormous revenue and Arsenal will easily buy our Davies for 200 mil €. I don’t see a way how UEFA could ban those clubs from domestic competition or players from NT. City lawyers alone beat them at Lausanne court, imagine what kind of lawyers they have together. It is sad day for European football.
THIS. Bayern should cut the crap and join. ESL is the future, domestic leagues are the past.


Not this ESL and the way it' s been pushed out - the closed nature of it is a huge nono for me. Probably the biggest gripe with the whole thing. Imagine having to beat arsenal 5-1 every 4 weeks. Too boring.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pm

#12 wrote:My future will be without this "sport" then... Can spend my well-EARNED money elsewhere...
I’d like to say the same but probably I wouldn’t resist watching Bayern. I’d definitely stop spending money though.

I stand firmly by what I said this morning. The league will get boring very quickly. So maybe I’ll lose interest in football naturally eventually, anyway.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
dras_l wrote:This Super League is logical move for richest club in Europe. Funs around world want to watch Real vs Liverpool or Milan vs Arsenal not because they are the best clubs on the world, because they have strong marketing.
I’m happy Bayern is not part of this project; however, it will hurt us in few years. This Super League will have enormous revenue and Arsenal will easily buy our Davies for 200 mil €. I don’t see a way how UEFA could ban those clubs from domestic competition or players from NT. City lawyers alone beat them at Lausanne court, imagine what kind of lawyers they have together. It is sad day for European football.
THIS. Bayern should cut the crap and join. ESL is the future, domestic leagues are the past.

Fuck that. I’m out if we cave.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:09 pm

Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.


And you think it's cool to let clubs with century old tradition perish so some spoiled pricks half a world away can sit their asses down on the couch to watch real madrid play arsenal every other week? There's nothing attractive about this. It will get boring FAST.
Yes, for a simple reason; those clubs are not competitive anyway. As I've said before, having Bayern play in the BL is like having Usain Bolt running against kindergartners. Sure, once every decade, Bayern may forget to wake up due to a hangover, not show up and lose by forfeit, but other than that, it's not a competition.

It is impossible to stress this point too much: Dortmund can't keep a hold of 21-year olds now for more than 2 seasons. Leipzig couldn't retain Werner, Keita, Upa. Simply put, there is no way that Bayern wins less than 8 of the next 10 leagues.

What German football fans and clubs want (but don't say they want) with their 50+1 rules, amateur management and "stepping stone" business models is semi-AMATEUR (as in non-professional) sports. If that's what they want, let them have it. Let the domestic leagues become the second division and competitive teams play on the first division (ESL).
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:12 pm

MihailT wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Lol. So you're telling me that Benfica is a bigger club than Manchester Shitry?


Regarding European Club tropheys - yes, they are. Whether you like it or not.
Well, sir, have fun in fantasy land.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:13 pm

munchen99 wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
dras_l wrote:This Super League is logical move for richest club in Europe. Funs around world want to watch Real vs Liverpool or Milan vs Arsenal not because they are the best clubs on the world, because they have strong marketing.
I’m happy Bayern is not part of this project; however, it will hurt us in few years. This Super League will have enormous revenue and Arsenal will easily buy our Davies for 200 mil €. I don’t see a way how UEFA could ban those clubs from domestic competition or players from NT. City lawyers alone beat them at Lausanne court, imagine what kind of lawyers they have together. It is sad day for European football.
THIS. Bayern should cut the crap and join. ESL is the future, domestic leagues are the past.


Not this ESL and the way it' s been pushed out - the closed nature of it is a huge nono for me. Probably the biggest gripe with the whole thing. Imagine having to beat arsenal 5-1 every 4 weeks. Too boring.
I agree on that. There should be a relegation (to domestic league) system.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:14 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.


And you think it's cool to let clubs with century old tradition perish so some spoiled pricks half a world away can sit their asses down on the couch to watch real madrid play arsenal every other week? There's nothing attractive about this. It will get boring FAST.
Yes, for a simple reason; those clubs are not competitive anyway. As I've said before, having Bayern play in the BL is like having Usain Bolt running against kindergartners. Sure, once every decade, Bayern may forget to wake up due to a hangover, not show up and lose by forfeit, but other than that, it's not a competition.

It is impossible to stress this point too much: Dortmund can't keep a hold of 21-year olds now for more than 2 seasons. Leipzig couldn't retain Werner, Keita, Upa. Simply put, there is no way that Bayern wins less than 8 of the next 10 leagues.

What German football fans and clubs want (but don't say they want) with their 50+1 rules, amateur management and "stepping stone" business models is semi-AMATEUR (as in non-professional) sports. If that's what they want, let them have it. Let the domestic leagues become the second division and competitive teams play on the first division (ESL).

Without those “boring and weak” clubs player development and grassroots domestic football will die.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:14 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
Did you know that the only legal way to watch the Bundesliga in South America (BR included) at the moment is through a shitty app called OneFootball? ESPN/Fox no longer have broadcasting rights. You know why? Cause Bundesliga just doesn't sell.


Tbf, it also airs on national brazilian television on (select) sundays, which is free and accessible to pretty much everyone. It's actually becoming more popular.
Bundesliga is on public TV in Brazil? How? I know a few BR Bayern fans from the other Bayern forum, and they told me it's only on OF.[/quote]

It is. Not every game, though. I watch it there sometimes, though the commentators are incredibly annoying.
Last edited by Lahmies on Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:18 pm

sherpthederp wrote:Without those “boring and weak” clubs player development and grassroots domestic football will die.


THIS. The system is simply not sustainable without them.
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Re: European Football

Postby sherpthederp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:19 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:I agree on that. There should be a relegation (to domestic league) system.

That’s great that you agree on that but it’s a pipe dream that that would ever happen. American investors want a guaranteed return on investment without any merit or results. Arsenal will be bottom of the ESL every year and Kroenke will still refuse to invest in the club, hell just pocket more. This isn’t competition anymore, it’s entertainment
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:22 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Lahmies wrote:
For you, maybe. I'd rather watch us play against teams who actually earned their sports there. I genuinely find that more exciting to watch, especially when small teams upset big teams in the CL. And with time, who's to say Leicester, Leeds, Sevilla won't become new big teams? Chelsea, Tottenham, City, were no one a decade or two ago.
Basic economics say they won't.


I don't think so. Other billionaires can seize the opportunity to buy these clubs now and actually make it to the CL. Plus, many of them already have history and large fanbases to capitalize on.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:24 pm

sherpthederp wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
Lahmies wrote:[quote="PunkCapitalist"]
I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.


And you think it's cool to let clubs with century old tradition perish so some spoiled pricks half a world away can sit their asses down on the couch to watch real madrid play arsenal every other week? There's nothing attractive about this. It will get boring FAST.
Yes, for a simple reason; those clubs are not competitive anyway. As I've said before, having Bayern play in the BL is like having Usain Bolt running against kindergartners. Sure, once every decade, Bayern may forget to wake up due to a hangover, not show up and lose by forfeit, but other than that, it's not a competition.

It is impossible to stress this point too much: Dortmund can't keep a hold of 21-year olds now for more than 2 seasons. Leipzig couldn't retain Werner, Keita, Upa. Simply put, there is no way that Bayern wins less than 8 of the next 10 leagues.

What German football fans and clubs want (but don't say they want) with their 50+1 rules, amateur management and "stepping stone" business models is semi-AMATEUR (as in non-professional) sports. If that's what they want, let them have it. Let the domestic leagues become the second division and competitive teams play on the first division (ESL).

Without those “boring and weak” clubs player development and grassroots domestic football will die.[/quote]No it won't. The Mainz and Leverkusens can become a second division/stepping stone to the first division. Heck, they already are, the only problem is that Bayern plays 90% of it's games against unsuitable opposition.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:27 pm

And yet there isn’t a single league, except maybe La Liga, where the top teams are still the same as 15 years ago or 20, let alone 50. Some are still there, but the teams competing with them and winning titles at the same time were different. Some teams have disappeared entirely, like Deportivo. Others vanished for years (Liverpool). New ones emerged, like Man City and Chelsea.

Youre saying those traditional teams are irrelevant because they’re uncompetitive. 15 years ago City would have been even worse because they were neither competitive nor traditional. These teams are there simply because they started the thing themselves at the time when they happened to be relevant. Who says they will still be in 5 years?

Do you seriously believe Bayern are going to win the Bundesliga perpetually? Do you think we’re going to win the next 100 titles? Did Inter need the Super League to stop Juve’s similarly seemingly unbreakable run? They barely even needed CL money!

It’s all very easy tell us these teams have no competition and yet, Bayern this season were eliminated from the cup by a second division side who might even go on to win the thing. Real Madrid by an even lower division club. In the past 10 years Leicester City won the Premier League and Borussia Dortmund reached a CL final. These things are IMPOSSIBLE in the football world you’re advocating for!

Not a SINGLE Champions League semi finalist in 2020 is in the Super Cup. It’s an incredibly twisted narrative based on a narrative taken from the last 5-10 years alone and assuming that it is an infallible blueprint for the rest of history. And it’s not even based on truth.

Ultimately, you, Punk, gave exactly the reason why the Super League is a terrible idea whose only purpose is money. You said clubs with a long footballing tradition are irrelevant and small because they’re no longer competitive. And guess what? We no longer see Nottingham in the CL, we don’t see Benfica and Deportivo play the big Wednesday night games. In fact, we haven’t even seen Arsenal, Man United, and especially Milan play them for some time? Why? Because no matter how big they are they were incapable of remaining competitive and the football we know, love, and are defending has always been based on merit. In the football the Super League wants, a team could end up having the footballing level of a Maltese second division club and they would still be playing all the important games with the big boys.
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