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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:34 pm

AvatarX wrote:Very sad days for football IMHO.

I hope all this will be just a bubble for ESL teams and they end up by arranging something like Friendly - Cup - ESL yearly trophy.
Football is a sport for the masses - not for elites and it should stay that way.

I am really curious. What about EPL fans? Are they happy with ESL format? What do they say to their forums (for example ManU or City)?
Fans of Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, and Man United have definitely set up banners and the like outside their stadiums/HQs etc. I also saw other PL clubs taking a stand.

You can say what you like about English fans but domestic football is a massive part of their culture. This is an affront against that.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:35 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Kind of unfair for the players though. What happens here, legally? Will they have the right to annul their contracts given changed circumstances?
FIFA and UEFA are the ones infringing on their rights by acting as a cartel and denying them their freedoms of association and labor. FIFA in particular is being extremely coercive by putting their dirty hands on this.

How do you figure? I'd imagine it's perfectly within their rights to decide who gets to play in their competitions (much like the ESL is doing after all). In fact, perhaps the fact that a rival big association is going to pop up weakens that argument because as long as (almost) all football comes under the FIFA banner that might make sense, but once you've got a diverse market, not so much.
I'm not a lawyer, but: a good analogy is web browsers. What FIFA wants to do with the World Cup would be equivalent to Microsoft restricting all windows OS from installing Google Chrome. We know for a fact that that would be illegal.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:36 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.


And you think it's cool to let clubs with century old tradition perish so some spoiled pricks half a world away can sit their asses down on the couch to watch real madrid play arsenal every other week? There's nothing attractive about this. It will get boring FAST.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:37 pm

MihailT wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:That would be ridiculous. We lost fair and square, it would be outrageous to now be revived and win it. Plus, a UCL without those 12 teams is worth exactly nothing.


I agree with you that we've been knocked out as per all the rules, and being reinstated in the competition is unfair.

However, that last statement is a myth at best, which is currently circulated as a defence for the secessionist ECL. So here are the facts:

8 out of those 12 teams (66.6%) have won a total of 0 UCLs in the past 10 years. Furthermore, Arsenal, Tottenham, Atl.Madrid and Manchester C. have never ever won it, period.

Since the introduction of the UCL, Liverpool have skipped more editions than they have taken part in.

Juventus has last lifted the title in the millenium, during which the Crusades took place, Istanbul was Constantinople, humans discovered North and South America as new continents, survived two devastating world wars, put a man on the Moon, and the West defeated the USSR in the Cold War.

Apart from Real Madrid, and Barcelona (which itself became a factor post-2009 due to the emergence of a single generationally exceptional player), there aren't any particularly spectacular teams to speak of. Hamburger and Benfica have as much claim to this "Super League" as half the teams on it. This has nothing to do with quality of football and tradition in the UCL - it's a money grab and attempted revolution.
Lol. So you're telling me that Benfica is a bigger club than Manchester Shitry?
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 pm

ramsej84 wrote:FIFPRO to ‘vigorously oppose’ players’ possible international ban

Let's go....

This is what gives back too much Rights
Freedom of association is BASIC human rights. Banning those players from NTs would be disgusting authoritarian behavior. Impossible to hold that on courts.
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
aterford wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:This move must have been based on the American model which, without question, is the best commercial sporting infrastructure in the world. The NFL is basically a trade association of all the clubs, all with interest in the competition. No middle man with vested interest. In lieu of relegation/promotion, they have salary caps and major/minor leagues. The clubs can actually vote on issues.

Consider a hypothetical scenario where we have the domestic leagues, Champions League and international football as they are, but without the existence of the corrupt FIFA/UEFA. Nice, right? Well, that's the world we're heading towards with this.

It looks bad now because there's a split between "traditional" competitions vs. the "elite" super league, but make no mistake - eventually their goal is to run football. It's a forceful way of breaking away from FIFA/UEFA, which is what most people want anyway. It's not going to remain an association of 12 clubs, but of 100 clubs.

There will be small clubs joining in, who can't break through "organically" in the current system. They'll get more clubs to follow suit and eventually all of them (because, well, money). It's not just the single super league, they'll eventually have their "minor leagues" i.e. some version of the domestic competitions. They'll host international competitions eventually if there's demand for it, and even better because they wouldn't fit in international matches in the club schedule.

It will be a very rocky change, but it's inevitable and I think it'll be a better football landscape after the transition...if my theory is correct, anyway.


MUTU wrote:My prediction is that all this is one big bluff to reach a compromise with UEFA to create a European Super League as a division higher to all current top domestic leagues in Europe.

The idea I have is that the Champions League becomes an actual league. Teams participating in it won't play in their domestic league. The worst performing team in every country at the end of the season would play 2 leg playoffs against the domestic league winner to see whether there is promotion/relegation.

Furthermore, the teams that reach the Europa League semifinals would replace the bottom four teams in the new Champions League.

This way, it would still be a UEFA competition with the most elite clubs playing every week, but at the same time still be an open competition based on merit.


I am wondering if the ultimate goal isn't some sort of hybrid between the two of these ideas (and then some)

Long post incoming. Just right off the bat - I hope this first bit doesn't come off as patronizing, but I'm not sure how familiar people are here with how many NA sports leagues are structured, so going to walk through some basic explanation. Not because I think anyone's dumb, but it's just totally foreign to many. I will put in spoiler tag to save some space; if you are familiar with NA league structures then feel free to skip, if not you may find it informative.

Spoiler: show
So, I'll take the NFL as an example, as it's the most successful and prominent league in North America. And, in terms of *league revenue* it's the richest single league in the world and it's not close, something like 12 billion. MLB and NBA are 2 and 3 behind it, it's not until 4 that we find our first football league, the EPL of course. Anyways, just a little aside.

If you're not familiar the NFL is made up of 32 teams. It is structured into two 'conferences' called the NFC (National Football Conference) and the AFC (American Football Conference), so 16 teams per conference. Each conference is broken up into four 'divisions' of 4 teams each (NFC North, NFC South, NFC East, NFC West, and so on for AFC).

Now the way scheduling is set for the NFL is pretty formulaic. I'll use my favorite team for example, the Packers. They play in the NFC North.
So, every year, first and foremost you know you're playing each of your *division* opponents twice (one home game, one away game for each opponent, so six games). For the Packers that's two games against the Bears, two games against the Lions, and two games against the Vikings.
Then you play four games against one of the divisions that is in your conference. So, for example, last season Green Bay was drawn against the NFC South, so they played the Falcons, the Buccaneers, the Saints, and the Panthers. Two of these are home games, and two are road games. So far, 10 games.
Then you will also play four games against a division from the other conference, so if you're in the NFC you'll play four games against one AFC division, or vice versa. Last season for GB it was the AFC South, so played against the Colts, Jaguars, Texans, and Titans. Again, two at home and two on the road, bringing you to 14 games.
Finally there are two remaining games from the remaining two divisions in your own conference. So, Packers play in NFC North, and last season played against the NFC South also, so the remaining two games would be against a team from the NFC East and one from the NFC West, and so on.
On top of that, all of this is on a yearly rotation, to ensure you are playing everyone roughly in an even frequency. With four divisions per conference and four games per season against one division from each conference, it means every 4 years you are guaranteed to play every team and then in another 4 years you will have played them all twice at least, and so on.

ANYWAYS, on top of this, conference/division impacts how the postseason is set up. The top teams from each division are automatically into the postseason. Here it's done by W-L-D record. In addition, the two best non-Division winners are in the playoffs too (Well, now it's three as they just recently changed it, but the old rules are a little easier to explain, so I'm going with that). The NFC teams and AFC teams are split into brackets; top record in each conference is top seed and then it's structured so basically high seed plays low seed. There is a playoff bye for the top seeds and some stuff like that, but that's the gist of it. When it's all said and done, the team who progresses through the NFC playoff and the team who progresses through the AFC playoff meet in the title game, and that's the super bowl. Anyways, that's the basic explanation, and I'm wondering how much we'll borrow from that....


SO, that out of the way, I suspect Dumbledore is on the right track - the end goal won't just be a 12 or 15-16 or even 20 team league or whatever, but rather I think their goal would ultimately be to encompass all of the major clubs/leagues in Europe under their umbrella. Basically the new UEFA, with a different structure and different leaders at the top. Is that better? I don't know either way, but - maybe I am being too naive here - I'm not sure the intention is to completely gut football as we know it with no replacement and leaving it only as haves and have-nots.

So I'm wondering if maybe the long term isn't to create a massive league covering much of Europe that would be structured and/or scheduled similar to many North American sports leagues, with conference/division schedules set each year as well as some "non-conference" matches on a rotating basis.

Like I said in my spoiler, each division in the NFL plays the other teams in its division twice a year, one home match and one away match. Kind of like we do in the Bundesliga right now. You play each team twice, once at home and once on the road. What if the plan is to make it so there is basically "ESL - England Division" and "ESL - Germany Division" and "ESL - Spain Division" and so on and so forth. Maybe it would be the case that you'd continue to play your "regular" schedule against your "division" opponents (which would more or less be how the league is now) but additionally add in some "non-conference" matches every season. So it might be that one year we'd play a Bundesliga schedule, but also have say a dozen matches against English teams, or something like that. Each match earns points like usual.

Then say towards the end of the season you count up the points and 1.) the team with the most points in their 'division' is that league's winner and 2.) The teams with the most points in the ESL total, say maybe like top 32 or something - progress to the end-of-season tournament and that's the de-facto UCL replacement.

Biggest difficulty here is figuring out how to set the number of matches properly... I guess if leagues did their typical schedule of 34-38 matches, plus maybe 12-16 "other division" matches, then 5-6 postseason tournament matches, that's roughly in-line with a full season as it stands (50ish matches and change). Of course you would have to find a way to balance the leagues or "divisions" to ensure the same number of matches as obviously a PL team with 38 matches would stand to earn more points than a BL team with 34 matches, as it is.

Anyways that's totally just spitballing, but I could see something like that being the ultimate end-goal when it's all said and done. Of course that doesn't really address so much of the other nuts and bolts issues like salary cap (and floor!), revenue distribution, all that jazz, but that's for another day.


I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.
That’s BullCRAP!

You could make that claim if these assholes truly formed their own league... But they want to KEEP playing domestic leagues... You must’ve missed that, right, cause it‘s making a mockery of your argument...
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:41 pm

Lahmies wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
That would be ridiculous. We lost fair and square, it would be outrageous to now be revived and win it. Plus, a UCL without those 12 teams is worth exactly nothing.


For you, maybe. I'd rather watch us play against teams who actually earned their sports there. I genuinely find that more exciting to watch, especially when small teams upset big teams in the CL. And with time, who's to say Leicester, Leeds, Sevilla won't become new big teams? Chelsea, Tottenham, City, were no one a decade or two ago.
Basic economics say they won't.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:42 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Valerio wrote:Prolly being Amazon and what's not

Lol talk about chasing the money and sending a big FU to the fans. So anyone who doesn't own a smart tv or video game console will be obliged to watch football on their computers or phones.
Did you know that the only legal way to watch the Bundesliga in South America (BR included) at the moment is through a shitty app called OneFootball? ESPN/Fox no longer have broadcasting rights. You know why? Cause Bundesliga just doesn't sell.
That’s bullshit and should not be the case, I’ll give you that. I am totally against football being only via streaming apps or sites (like Facebook, as has happened with other sports), at least while these still aren’t the ubiquitous form of media consumption.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:43 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:The way I see it, if the international ban seems credible, then it is actually a great time for someone interested in investing in football to do so. Imagine you are a billionaire and you buy someone like Fiorentina. You can match (or come close to) the salaries these big clubs are paying their players while being able to lure them with the temptation of international football.
Not gonna work because without those 12 clubs, the domestic leagues would generate none of the revenue. This is the problem underlying the Spanish distribution of TV money conflicts. The minor clubs want more equality, but the broadcasters paying for the rights to have La Liga are really only paying for Madrid, Barça and Atlético games. The other matches are of no interest to anyone.
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:50 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:[quote="FCBayernMunchen"]Kind of unfair for the players though. What happens here, legally? Will they have the right to annul their contracts given changed circumstances?
FIFA and UEFA are the ones infringing on their rights by acting as a cartel and denying them their freedoms of association and labor. FIFA in particular is being extremely coercive by putting their dirty hands on this.

How do you figure? I'd imagine it's perfectly within their rights to decide who gets to play in their competitions (much like the ESL is doing after all). In fact, perhaps the fact that a rival big association is going to pop up weakens that argument because as long as (almost) all football comes under the FIFA banner that might make sense, but once you've got a diverse market, not so much.
I'm not a lawyer, but: a good analogy is web browsers. What FIFA wants to do with the World Cup would be equivalent to Microsoft restricting all windows OS from installing Google Chrome. We know for a fact that that would be illegal.[/quote]No, actually what they’re doing is putting up system requirements...
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:52 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:FIFPRO to ‘vigorously oppose’ players’ possible international ban

Let's go....

This is what gives back too much Rights
Freedom of association is BASIC human rights. Banning those players from NTs would be disgusting authoritarian behavior. Impossible to hold that on courts.
They’re not banned from NTs! FIFA is merely regulating who gets to take part in THEIR competition... Wanna be told wgo you have to invite to your birthday party?
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Re: European Football

Postby AvatarX » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:52 pm

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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:53 pm

dras_l wrote:This Super League is logical move for richest club in Europe. Funs around world want to watch Real vs Liverpool or Milan vs Arsenal not because they are the best clubs on the world, because they have strong marketing.
I’m happy Bayern is not part of this project; however, it will hurt us in few years. This Super League will have enormous revenue and Arsenal will easily buy our Davies for 200 mil €. I don’t see a way how UEFA could ban those clubs from domestic competition or players from NT. City lawyers alone beat them at Lausanne court, imagine what kind of lawyers they have together. It is sad day for European football.
THIS. Bayern should cut the crap and join. ESL is the future, domestic leagues are the past.
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Re: European Football

Postby #12 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:56 pm

My future will be without this "sport" then... Can spend my well-EARNED money elsewhere...
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Re: European Football

Postby MihailT » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:Lol. So you're telling me that Benfica is a bigger club than Manchester Shitry?


Regarding European Club tropheys - yes, they are. Whether you like it or not.
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