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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:39 pm

What some of you dont understand...it is not about clubs wanting to be in a super league and competing there with the best clubs in europe every week. It is about owners of these clubs not wanting to lose money and getting richer and richer. That is a problem.

If Man Utd (add any other club with owners) owners want to keep competing they need to invest millions every season to reach the CL. Just reaching the CL is not enough so if they dont want to get knocked out in the group phase and they want to go to semis or final they need to invest even more (if they want to earn more money in the CL). So they decided they dont want to compete for the CL and dont want to invest money to earn money and trophies. They just want a safe system where they can get millions of profit without needing to worry about not qualifing to a competition or getting top 4 in their domestic league.

This is just the beginning. What comes next? Playing games in North America, Asia,...? just to earn more money.
Moving a club from London to New York? It seems impossible but when owners of the clubs are leagues leaders...they decide what they want. There is no outside regulatory system that can prevent them from doing those things.

I am sorry to say this but I just dont understand how some of you can even think about agreeing to this kind of scandal. Those Chinese, American, Arab, Russian owners dont give a fuck about a fan or a club. They only care about money.
They dont have a clue what football stands for. They dont give a shit about tradition and history.
Did anyone even ask their fans what they want? NO. they knew fans would get mad and they still did it. Bunch of cockroaches and snakes.

UEFA is not perfect and I am not defending them, I am defending football and what it stands for. But at least UEFA always had an open dialogue with clubs and tried to keep everyone happy. Year after year they negotiated and tried to please everyone but you just cant please greedy bastards.

Football is about competing, passion and much more. This whole new idea of a closed super league is about making money and entertainment. It has nothing to do with football.
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Re: European Football

Postby aaaaaa » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:49 pm

this could end quickly is UK puts in the 50+1 rule like some are suggesting
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Re: European Football

Postby aaaaaa » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:51 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:What some of you dont understand...it is not about clubs wanting to be in a super league and competing there with the best clubs in europe every week. It is about owners of these clubs not wanting to lose money and getting richer and richer. That is a problem.

If Man Utd (add any other club with owners) owners want to keep competing they need to invest millions every season to reach the CL. Just reaching the CL is not enough so if they dont want to get knocked out in the group phase and they want to go to semis or final they need to invest even more (if they want to earn more money in the CL). So they decided they dont want to compete for the CL and dont want to invest money to earn money and trophies. They just want a safe system where they can get millions of profit without needing to worry about not qualifing to a competition or getting top 4 in their domestic league.

This is just the beginning. What comes next? Playing games in North America, Asia,...? just to earn more money.
Moving a club from London to New York? It seems impossible but when owners of the clubs are leagues leaders...they decide what they want. There is no outside regulatory system that can prevent them from doing those things.

I am sorry to say this but I just dont understand how some of you can even think about agreeing to this kind of scandal. Those Chinese, American, Arab, Russian owners dont give a fuck about a fan or a club. They only care about money.
They dont have a clue what football stands for. They dont give a shit about tradition and history.
Did anyone even ask their fans what they want? NO. they knew fans would get mad and they still did it. Bunch of cockroaches and snakes.

UEFA is not perfect and I am not defending them, I am defending football and what it stands for. But at least UEFA always had an open dialogue with clubs and tried to keep everyone happy. Year after year they negotiated and tried to please everyone but you just cant please greedy bastards.

Football is about competing, passion and much more. This whole new idea of a closed super league is about making money and entertainment. It has nothing to do with football.

this and that is why we are supporting Bayern and its also a prime example why the 50+1 has to stand
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Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 pm

aaaaaa wrote:this could end quickly is UK puts in the 50+1 rule like some are suggesting


It is too late for them to do that. Dont know if it is legal to force someone to sell their shares in the club...and It would mean that the government or fans would need to put billions of pounds to buy those 51% shares. But they could force them to follow the rules through the FA, if not they would be dropped out of all the national competitions (league, FA cup etc..).which would hurt them financially as some fans would also probably boycott the club.
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Re: European Football

Postby AvatarX » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:58 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:What some of you dont understand...it is not about clubs wanting to be in a super league and competing there with the best clubs in europe every week. It is about owners of these clubs not wanting to lose money and getting richer and richer. That is a problem.

If Man Utd (add any other club with owners) owners want to keep competing they need to invest millions every season to reach the CL. Just reaching the CL is not enough so if they dont want to get knocked out in the group phase and they want to go to semis or final they need to invest even more (if they want to earn more money in the CL). So they decided they dont want to compete for the CL and dont want to invest money to earn money and trophies. They just want a safe system where they can get millions of profit without needing to worry about not qualifing to a competition or getting top 4 in their domestic league.

This is just the beginning. What comes next? Playing games in North America, Asia,...? just to earn more money.
Moving a club from London to New York? It seems impossible but when owners of the clubs are leagues leaders...they decide what they want. There is no outside regulatory system that can prevent them from doing those things.

I am sorry to say this but I just dont understand how some of you can even think about agreeing to this kind of scandal. Those Chinese, American, Arab, Russian owners dont give a fuck about a fan or a club. They only care about money.
They dont have a clue what football stands for. They dont give a shit about tradition and history.
Did anyone even ask their fans what they want? NO. they knew fans would get mad and they still did it. Bunch of cockroaches and snakes.

UEFA is not perfect and I am not defending them, I am defending football and what it stands for. But at least UEFA always had an open dialogue with clubs and tried to keep everyone happy. Year after year they negotiated and tried to please everyone but you just cant please greedy bastards.

Football is about competing, passion and much more. This whole new idea of a closed super league is about making money and entertainment. It has nothing to do with football.


This ^^^.

BTW I read a lot of anger and distancing from fans of ESL teams in EPL. Somehow I get the impression that if there was no-Covid period, with stadiums full of fans, those owners would never have think to do something like this.
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Re: European Football

Postby AvatarX » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:02 pm

Euro 2020 is cursed, no doubt. First Covid, now this. LOL
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Re: European Football

Postby sch0ll7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:07 pm

AvatarX wrote:BTW I read a lot of anger and distancing from fans of ESL teams in EPL. Somehow I get the impression that if there was no-Covid period, with stadiums full of fans, those owners would never have think to do something like this.


Everyone in England is fuming and they have every right to be angry. What surprises me the most is Barca and Real fans are quite okay with this. And to think that they are a fan owned clubs it is really sad. But I guess all the debts they have this is probably the only way they can still stay relevant in the near future.
And you are right...it just shows what kind of snakes they are to take advantage of this covid situation, lockdowns, empty stadiums etc...to get this out now.

I hope it backfires on them and they get the same punishment Juventus got in 2007...and get relegated so they have to climb back to where they were and most of them drown in their own piss.
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Re: European Football

Postby aterford » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm

LEEDS UNITED FROM THE TOP ROPE!!!

Can't see tweet? Click here!
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Re: European Football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:19 pm

aterford wrote:LEEDS UNITED FROM THE TOP ROPE!!!

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Holy shit what an elite tweet :lol:
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:25 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Valerio wrote:Prolly being Amazon and what's not

Lol talk about chasing the money and sending a big FU to the fans. So anyone who doesn't own a smart tv or video game console will be obliged to watch football on their computers or phones.
Did you know that the only legal way to watch the Bundesliga in South America (BR included) at the moment is through a shitty app called OneFootball? ESPN/Fox no longer have broadcasting rights. You know why? Cause Bundesliga just doesn't sell.
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Re: European Football

Postby munchen99 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:26 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
aterford wrote:LEEDS UNITED FROM THE TOP ROPE!!!

Can't see tweet? Click here!

Holy shit what an elite tweet :lol:



LMAO.

For the record I think dortmund and porto should just play for a place in the final against PSG. How would they justify reviving us? Although I'd take it.
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Re: European Football

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:29 pm

aterford wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:This move must have been based on the American model which, without question, is the best commercial sporting infrastructure in the world. The NFL is basically a trade association of all the clubs, all with interest in the competition. No middle man with vested interest. In lieu of relegation/promotion, they have salary caps and major/minor leagues. The clubs can actually vote on issues.

Consider a hypothetical scenario where we have the domestic leagues, Champions League and international football as they are, but without the existence of the corrupt FIFA/UEFA. Nice, right? Well, that's the world we're heading towards with this.

It looks bad now because there's a split between "traditional" competitions vs. the "elite" super league, but make no mistake - eventually their goal is to run football. It's a forceful way of breaking away from FIFA/UEFA, which is what most people want anyway. It's not going to remain an association of 12 clubs, but of 100 clubs.

There will be small clubs joining in, who can't break through "organically" in the current system. They'll get more clubs to follow suit and eventually all of them (because, well, money). It's not just the single super league, they'll eventually have their "minor leagues" i.e. some version of the domestic competitions. They'll host international competitions eventually if there's demand for it, and even better because they wouldn't fit in international matches in the club schedule.

It will be a very rocky change, but it's inevitable and I think it'll be a better football landscape after the transition...if my theory is correct, anyway.


MUTU wrote:My prediction is that all this is one big bluff to reach a compromise with UEFA to create a European Super League as a division higher to all current top domestic leagues in Europe.

The idea I have is that the Champions League becomes an actual league. Teams participating in it won't play in their domestic league. The worst performing team in every country at the end of the season would play 2 leg playoffs against the domestic league winner to see whether there is promotion/relegation.

Furthermore, the teams that reach the Europa League semifinals would replace the bottom four teams in the new Champions League.

This way, it would still be a UEFA competition with the most elite clubs playing every week, but at the same time still be an open competition based on merit.


I am wondering if the ultimate goal isn't some sort of hybrid between the two of these ideas (and then some)

Long post incoming. Just right off the bat - I hope this first bit doesn't come off as patronizing, but I'm not sure how familiar people are here with how many NA sports leagues are structured, so going to walk through some basic explanation. Not because I think anyone's dumb, but it's just totally foreign to many. I will put in spoiler tag to save some space; if you are familiar with NA league structures then feel free to skip, if not you may find it informative.

Spoiler: show
So, I'll take the NFL as an example, as it's the most successful and prominent league in North America. And, in terms of *league revenue* it's the richest single league in the world and it's not close, something like 12 billion. MLB and NBA are 2 and 3 behind it, it's not until 4 that we find our first football league, the EPL of course. Anyways, just a little aside.

If you're not familiar the NFL is made up of 32 teams. It is structured into two 'conferences' called the NFC (National Football Conference) and the AFC (American Football Conference), so 16 teams per conference. Each conference is broken up into four 'divisions' of 4 teams each (NFC North, NFC South, NFC East, NFC West, and so on for AFC).

Now the way scheduling is set for the NFL is pretty formulaic. I'll use my favorite team for example, the Packers. They play in the NFC North.
So, every year, first and foremost you know you're playing each of your *division* opponents twice (one home game, one away game for each opponent, so six games). For the Packers that's two games against the Bears, two games against the Lions, and two games against the Vikings.
Then you play four games against one of the divisions that is in your conference. So, for example, last season Green Bay was drawn against the NFC South, so they played the Falcons, the Buccaneers, the Saints, and the Panthers. Two of these are home games, and two are road games. So far, 10 games.
Then you will also play four games against a division from the other conference, so if you're in the NFC you'll play four games against one AFC division, or vice versa. Last season for GB it was the AFC South, so played against the Colts, Jaguars, Texans, and Titans. Again, two at home and two on the road, bringing you to 14 games.
Finally there are two remaining games from the remaining two divisions in your own conference. So, Packers play in NFC North, and last season played against the NFC South also, so the remaining two games would be against a team from the NFC East and one from the NFC West, and so on.
On top of that, all of this is on a yearly rotation, to ensure you are playing everyone roughly in an even frequency. With four divisions per conference and four games per season against one division from each conference, it means every 4 years you are guaranteed to play every team and then in another 4 years you will have played them all twice at least, and so on.

ANYWAYS, on top of this, conference/division impacts how the postseason is set up. The top teams from each division are automatically into the postseason. Here it's done by W-L-D record. In addition, the two best non-Division winners are in the playoffs too (Well, now it's three as they just recently changed it, but the old rules are a little easier to explain, so I'm going with that). The NFC teams and AFC teams are split into brackets; top record in each conference is top seed and then it's structured so basically high seed plays low seed. There is a playoff bye for the top seeds and some stuff like that, but that's the gist of it. When it's all said and done, the team who progresses through the NFC playoff and the team who progresses through the AFC playoff meet in the title game, and that's the super bowl. Anyways, that's the basic explanation, and I'm wondering how much we'll borrow from that....


SO, that out of the way, I suspect Dumbledore is on the right track - the end goal won't just be a 12 or 15-16 or even 20 team league or whatever, but rather I think their goal would ultimately be to encompass all of the major clubs/leagues in Europe under their umbrella. Basically the new UEFA, with a different structure and different leaders at the top. Is that better? I don't know either way, but - maybe I am being too naive here - I'm not sure the intention is to completely gut football as we know it with no replacement and leaving it only as haves and have-nots.

So I'm wondering if maybe the long term isn't to create a massive league covering much of Europe that would be structured and/or scheduled similar to many North American sports leagues, with conference/division schedules set each year as well as some "non-conference" matches on a rotating basis.

Like I said in my spoiler, each division in the NFL plays the other teams in its division twice a year, one home match and one away match. Kind of like we do in the Bundesliga right now. You play each team twice, once at home and once on the road. What if the plan is to make it so there is basically "ESL - England Division" and "ESL - Germany Division" and "ESL - Spain Division" and so on and so forth. Maybe it would be the case that you'd continue to play your "regular" schedule against your "division" opponents (which would more or less be how the league is now) but additionally add in some "non-conference" matches every season. So it might be that one year we'd play a Bundesliga schedule, but also have say a dozen matches against English teams, or something like that. Each match earns points like usual.

Then say towards the end of the season you count up the points and 1.) the team with the most points in their 'division' is that league's winner and 2.) The teams with the most points in the ESL total, say maybe like top 32 or something - progress to the end-of-season tournament and that's the de-facto UCL replacement.

Biggest difficulty here is figuring out how to set the number of matches properly... I guess if leagues did their typical schedule of 34-38 matches, plus maybe 12-16 "other division" matches, then 5-6 postseason tournament matches, that's roughly in-line with a full season as it stands (50ish matches and change). Of course you would have to find a way to balance the leagues or "divisions" to ensure the same number of matches as obviously a PL team with 38 matches would stand to earn more points than a BL team with 34 matches, as it is.

Anyways that's totally just spitballing, but I could see something like that being the ultimate end-goal when it's all said and done. Of course that doesn't really address so much of the other nuts and bolts issues like salary cap (and floor!), revenue distribution, all that jazz, but that's for another day.


I doubt this is what's in planning for a simple reason: this model wouldn't fix the fundamental problem which is that domestic leagues are broken because the Mainz and Leverkusens of this world can't compete with the Bayerns and won't ever be able to do so unless outside money comes in freely. The ESL league is about cutting those teams out of the money distribution and guaranteeing that ALL games in the season are attractive.
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:31 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Lol talk about chasing the money and sending a big FU to the fans. So anyone who doesn't own a smart tv or video game console will be obliged to watch football on their computers or phones.
Did you know that the only legal way to watch the Bundesliga in South America (BR included) at the moment is through a shitty app called OneFootball? ESPN/Fox no longer have broadcasting rights. You know why? Cause Bundesliga just doesn't sell.


Tbf, it also airs on national brazilian television on (select) sundays, which is free and accessible to pretty much everyone. It's actually becoming more popular.
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Re: European Football

Postby AvatarX » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:31 pm

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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:32 pm

Lahmies wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!

It's getting more ridiculous by the second.
LOL fancy having won more Super Leagues than Arsenal for the next five decades without playing in it
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